As interior designers, it is critical we know how to—not just make money, but be profitable. And yet (especially for female business owners), that can be quite a tough topic to take a hard look at. As I always say, time is money! And it’s time you start making some serious money—unapologetically!

Joining me for this conversation is Laura Thornton! She’s an award-winning designer, a podcaster, and now the creator of a profitability course specifically for anyone in the interior design industry. Laura shares about time tracking, money management, offer pricing, intuition, and SO much more in this episode! I can guarantee you’re gonna need at least one notebook for this one. And be sure to stay for this week’s Coaching Corner!

In this episode, we cover:

• Why the interior design industry has a profitability problem

• How to overcome this profitability issue in your design firm

• How to know when you’ve hit the right pricing model and what role intuition plays

• How to get rid of the emotional response to making money

• The benefit of tracking your time each week

• Things you should be billing for that you’re not

• What inspired Laura to teach and train more around profitability

• What questions to answer so you start tracking your numbers

DM Laura and Katie to tell us why you're not charging for your consultations. And let us know what you loved from this conversation!

More about Laura Thornton

Laura, Founder and Creative Director of the award-winning Thornton Design studio since 1999, shares her wealth of experience and insights with fellow interior designers through her podcast, "The Business of Beautiful Spaces." Dive into a series packed with expert advice, business analysis, and innovative strategies crafted to elevate your interior design business prowess. Laura's passion to educate and inspire drives this podcast, serving as a catalyst for growth and success in the design industry. Now Laura is building a community where success stories are the norm, and explore her latest offering, "The Profit Academy for Interior Designers"—a transformative 6-week online course focused on pricing mastery and maximizing profitability in design projects.

Links and Mentioned Resources

The Studio

Coaching Strategy Session

Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell

The Profit Academy for Interior Designers (use code: KATIECOLOR10 to save 10%)

Clockify

Colorworks Cares

Guide to Choosing Your Pricing Model

Related Episodes

Hire a CPA

Target Market

Corporate Give Back

Connect with Laura Thornton

Website

Instagram

Podcast

This episode is brought to you by Nello Marelli

Struggling to stay ahead with the ever-evolving design trends while running your business? Discover the secret weapon of the design world - the 2025 Nel Colore Color Trend Book. Crafted by the renowned Italian designer Nello Morelli, whose expertise guides luxury brands from Milan to Paris, this tool is now stateside with our partnership. Get exclusive access to future color trends, combinations, and sociological insights up to two years in advance, ensuring your designs stand out. Elevate your projects and leave the trend-watching to us. Find the Nel Colore Color Trend Book, along with a mini version, exclusively in The Studio. 

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

Business Coaching for Interior Designers

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More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design

As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship. 

This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm. 

Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows

Katie (00:01.308)

She's here, Laura, welcome to the show. We're so glad to have you.

Laura Thornton (00:05.201)

Thank you for having me, I'm thrilled to be here.

Katie (00:07.612)

We are so excited that you are. And like, honestly, talking about a really, really, really important topic when I'm so excited to talk about profitability, I have that little jingle in the back of my head, money, money, money, right? Like it's everything in this career. And I think as women, a lot of times, one, we're afraid about it. We're afraid to talk about it. We can't unapologetically say, I'm here to make money. That's OK. I love what I do and I should be paid for it. Yeah, right. Right. That's.

Laura Thornton (00:19.184)

Totally. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (00:31.856)

I do! That's what I say! Yeah.

Katie (00:36.444)

That's why we have Laura look at on the show today. It's so true. So I want to back into it. When did you realize that we have a profitability problem in our industry? Like what was your personal experience? You're like, this isn't working out for me. We better fix this.

Laura Thornton (00:51.534)

Well, I think it was more or less probably right at the beginning. Now, whether I slow down to really digest that that was the problem, but every time it started to be that you were looking at your numbers and reassessing and nobody was flinching with what I was charging, that I started to creep up slowly. And then every time you would cringe when you were going to put your quote across the table or you were sending something to a client and nobody was flinching, that I realized there's more money to be made. And...

Katie (00:55.516)

Mm.

Katie (01:13.552)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Laura Thornton (01:21.932)

Like all of us, that is why we're in business. We're in business to make a living. We're in business to pay our bills and hopefully have something left over at the end of the month to do something lovely for ourselves or our family or whatever the case may be or to save it for retirement. We are all entrepreneurs. We do not have a built -in retirement fund. And so it was probably in my first 10 years of business where at first I had a young family and I was kind of doing it not as full time. And so...

Katie (01:36.892)

Yes. Yes.

Laura Thornton (01:49.003)

I wasn't able to justify the cost in my head. And as I smartened up, I realized it shouldn't matter what, no one needs to know that if I'm not working 45 to 60 hours a week, if I was only putting in 20 to 25, I should still be getting paid properly for those hours that I am putting into the job. And then as I figured that out on my own and started doing some work within our community of interior designers, the questions were very consistent with.

Katie (01:54.268)

It's okay.

Laura Thornton (02:18.154)

How to make money, how do you charge for this? What do you do in this scenario? How do you charge for your design time? Our community is lonely. We don't have a lot of people who do what we do in my world anyway. And that is changing, thank goodness, with podcasts like this, with communities, and a lot of us are women, and the topic of money has been taboo probably in a lot of people's lives. But once we start talking and sharing,

Katie (02:26.012)

Hmm. That is such a good word. Yep.

Katie (02:34.044)

Yep. Yep.

Laura Thornton (02:46.44)

It's amazing how people are able to gain and learn how to charge for their time properly and gain that confidence in themselves. And so this has been something now that has bothered me enough that I figured there has to be something out there. We're not taught in school. We're taught in school about beautiful fabrics and lighting and how to do floor plans and all of these great things. But no one has taught us how to A, run a business and more importantly, how to be profitable within that business. So.

It's been a long journey, but really in the last few years, it became very evident that other people are needing that information. And listen, it was a long road of 10 years of figuring out where I could charge, how I could charge, how I can make money. And like we said earlier, I am unapologetically in business to make money. I'm not, as much as I'm a very fun person to hang around with, and I like to have a good time, I, you know, at the end of the day, I have bills to pay and kids to send to university and that's.

Katie (03:36.668)

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (03:40.807)

what I wanted to be able to pass on to others.

Katie (03:43.452)

And it's so expensive to do so. And you had so many good nuggets in there. One line that I love to explain to designers who are struggling with this, they are not paying you for what you are doing for them at this moment. They are paying you for the work that you've done. When you go to a specialist, at least here in the States, right? You go to a specialist, you're going to pay 500 bucks an hour. No problem, right? And you see them for 15 minutes and you're like, my dermatologist, I think my dermatologist bills about 500 per appointment, actually, not per hour.

500 bucks per appointment, you got about 15 to 20 minute appointment. He looks over your whole body. Great. You're good to go. Well, I'm not paying him for that 20 minutes, right? I'm paying him for all the years of school, all the bodies he's looked at, everything he can see in a New York minute on my skin that I'd be sitting there Googling who knows what and diagnosing myself with who knows what, right?

Same is true of design. You're paying us because we have touched kajillions of fabrics. We know which paint colors work from which manufacturers. We think about structure and load bearing. We want to know where you're going to plug in your toaster in the morning. All of these things have all been built in to what you're buying today. And so I think sometimes there's this inhibition of designers of like, I don't know, it's a lot to charge an hour. And I love what you, what you mentioned about flinch. They weren't flinching.

Like at some point, keep going until you get a flinch because the value you're providing is insane. When did you finally hit that? When did you go, okay, I've hit that amount. Like I see the flinch now we're there.

Laura Thornton (05:15.426)

Well, that was last year during COVID with all the changes of construction to be very fair in Canada where I'm from, our construction costs went double. Double. So it wasn't my design time, it wasn't what we were trying, it was literally materials for construction. So that's when people who had done projects prior and understood the difference knew. But when it comes to our elements, which are the, you know, furniture and finishes,

Katie (05:18.204)

yeah.

Katie (05:27.836)

Wowza.

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (05:44.929)

Nobody was flinching. It was just the other elements where even I was like back to the being nervous to put the paperwork across the table and this is the total. But prior to that, yeah. But to your point, like when you were saying about like for, I'm Canadian too. So when you just said it was $500 for 15 minutes for your doctor, that made me cringe because we don't have bills here for medical. So I can't even imagine what that's like, but it's, it's.

Katie (05:47.068)

Isn't that insane?

Katie (05:54.332)

And they're really teeny letters and I like you, we should work together.

Katie (06:13.5)

It's crazy. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (06:14.719)

Yeah, I can't even imagine. But it's all the, it's not just the education and all the years behind them. It's because they're efficient. He saved you for us who, Bill by the hour, you weren't just sitting in that room for an hour while he flipped through his book to figure it out. He's saving you time too on the back end. And so those are the things that I always, I hear designers saying, well, we're faster and so we can do it faster. We don't charge you as much. And that's where I want to be like, pump the brakes.

Katie (06:25.116)

Great point.

Katie (06:29.756)

Absolutely.

Katie (06:40.476)

Absolutely, yes. No.

Laura Thornton (06:40.67)

You should not be shortchanging yourself because you do have decades or years of experience and you're more efficient. That's a benefit to the client, but you should not be shortchanging yourself and using that as a tool to market yourself because yes, you have that knowledge. Yes, you have all of that background and education, but that doesn't mean that there's a deal because you spent decades doing it. But I know it's different ways.

Katie (07:05.98)

Great point. What do you say to the women though? Like I feel like there's this fear factor. Like the first bank for women in America came about relatively close to my lifetime. I want to say it was seventies, early eighties. Women were not allowed to have, excuse me, have their own bank account in America without a male co -signer. As recently as that. And I think that there is this generational problem of money and women overall. We could go down a long, long, long, long

right? But the first day the women's bank opened, it was actually a handful of women that got together and said, we're going to start our own women's bank. And there was a line around the block and they got millions of dollars in deposits pulled out from under mattresses inside walls. It was like, I can run my own finances. I still feel like we have a hangover from that sitting here 50 ish years later. What do you say to the woman that's like, how do I get over my fear of sliding that proposal across the table?

and being confident in saying, I am absolutely worth this because to your point, I've gotten more efficient. I've done the work. I felt the fabrics and I'm here to execute for you. How do we get rid of that emotional response to profit making?

Laura Thornton (08:19.23)

Well, I guess, do we ever? I'm just more confident in, do we ever? I don't know. Is it the fake it till you make it? Which I hate that term, by the way. But if you are confident in your numbers and you know that they are accurate and you've, like, I still have to, I don't sell anything at a retail level. We are very much custom here at my studio.

Katie (08:22.812)

Fair question.

Katie (08:28.828)

You

Laura Thornton (08:39.614)

But I still have to go out and educate myself. If I'm somewhere where there's a restoration hardware, I still look in, I look it up online. I will find out what the retail cost of the average sectional sofa is. And if someone is willing to tell me that they went to restoration hardware on the weekend and looked and I know they start at $12 ,000 for that particular sofa, but I know I can have it made for way less than half of that and profit the rest. That is where I would gain confidence because I know I'm getting.

Katie (08:58.396)

Sure.

Katie (09:03.42)

Absolutely.

Laura Thornton (09:07.454)

No, this is not a knock at restoration hardware. So don't, you know, no one come at me for restoration hardware. It's just, if you're able to do custom and I'm able to pick that fabric that I know would be a hardworking fabric for the family with the dog and the cat and the kids that could maybe have some soiling on it. And I know that that sofa is going to look like a million bucks in 10 years and they paid less than what they were going to pay at retail. And maybe it's American made as opposed to coming from somewhere else and being shipped. Yeah. Right.

Katie (09:10.3)

No, no, no, no.

Katie (09:20.572)

Yep.

Katie (09:31.484)

across, yeah, across an ocean maybe, yeah.

Laura Thornton (09:34.646)

Yeah, and you know, we could definitely sell it in a different way and it's actually a better product. That gives me confidence to be able to quote that and supply that luxury item to my client unapologetically because I know I'm providing them with a better product period with a better made, you know, material with like so you could gain that confidence if you're taking control of the items that you're able to sell because now you're able to warranty those items and feel confident about those items and.

Katie (09:58.748)

Yep, for sure.

Laura Thornton (10:03.509)

And some of that comes with having really great vendor relations and building that up. So that's one element. But if you are confident in knowing your worth, if you know your worth and you know that you're right, I think that reads right away to a client as opposed to you don't love the design. We all know when we get that feeling like something is not right with this design. It's just not, there's something I'm not feeling and I've done it where...

Katie (10:12.7)

Mm, I love that.

Katie (10:23.944)

Yes, yes.

Laura Thornton (10:30.067)

you know, right at the last minute, I'm like, I still don't like it, something needs to change. And I know I'm going to lose money because now I didn't a lot for those hours that I'm making that choice, but just wasn't sitting right with me. And then they love it and they buy every element. So, you know, it will be worth it. But it's having that confidence. If you have that, that feeling, because we all have intuition, it's whether you choose to, to listen to it. If you have that feeling, then change it until you don't. Because if you have the confidence when you slide your presentation or have them come into your studio, you bring it to their home,

Katie (10:34.044)

Yep.

Katie (10:47.868)

Yep. so powerful.

Yep.

Laura Thornton (11:00.05)

and you are really believing all of the elements that you've selected are real and right, I do believe that that comes through. And that reads as confidence to your client. So I think it does come with time. I think it does come with a little more season. You'll get better and better at it. But you have to know your prices. You have to know so that you can educate your client so that they feel confident in what they're buying from you as well.

Katie (11:07.708)

I totally agree.

Katie (11:26.556)

I love what you said about intuition with your pricing. And this is where I think there has to be an allowance for a variable in our, in our firm. We call it the 5 % more care. If you have just 5 % more care, like you sit with that intuition, you're like, yep, this needs 5 % more. And it's going to be a slam dunk. It's that tipping point Malcolm Gladwell talks about, right? It's that tipping point. I'm going to do 5 % more.

because I know it's going to make the difference because that in my intuition is telling me it's just this one thing is off and if we fix it, we'll have a cohesive design. I can just feel it in my gut. It's just not there. How do you allow for that in a pricing model? Do you allow for that? Do you build that in? How do you make give yourself the freedom to still have your creative license so you have some wiggle room while still making sure you aren't like 20 hours in of unbillable?

because you flat rated it and now you're in trouble, but you've got a slam dunk design.

Laura Thornton (12:23.951)

So we, again, it's time, and I've tried all the ways, this goes back to the 10 years of trying, every which direction of how to be profitable and what worked best. And at the end of the day, what works best for us based on hours, and we track every hour in this office, we track everything. Like I will track today's time chatting with you just so I can allot and see where my week went. Even though, you know, this is not a billable hour, it's just to see where that time went.

I, we lit like to the point where I had to tell some of the girls in the office, you don't have to tell me when you went to the bathroom. Like I don't need to see, you know, got up, went to the bathroom because that's how diligent we are with tracking our time. And because we do that, I'm, I have a really good idea of what it takes us to do a project in addition to, so it is a flat rate that we charge based on hours. But in addition to that, I build in all of the one revision that we include in our design. and then there is a wee bit of a buffer in there, which typically.

Katie (13:02.62)

Yeah.

Katie (13:08.604)

Yep.

Laura Thornton (13:21.803)

you know, hopefully we don't always use, but it doesn't get used. If it doesn't get used, then you know, you know, it's going to get eaten up in phone calls or something else down the road. But yes, it's allotted for, and we've done that by tracking hours. So we track every hour in this office and still do it, and then still have to make sure that we do the due diligence of going back after and applying it to the project to see if we were bang on and if we lost it, if we, if we were off a bit and then we adjust.

Katie (13:46.012)

I love, I think that's so smart. You're constantly measuring. If you're not measuring to anyone out there who's not measuring their hours and how long it's taking you to do projects, you cannot win the game. At the end of the day, if you want to make money, which is a numbers game, you got to have numbers to support it. So whether it's clockify, whether it's a quick books time, whatever you're putting it into, put it into something, just to have an help. Just please start with your time so you know what you.

and your team, if it's just you, you count. How do you know how to set your pricing if you don't do you first and figure out where? Because to your point about sitting on this call today, that will even get tracked. We put that under marketing. That becomes a marketing expenditure, right? Cause we're sitting here, we're talking about what we're doing, how we're doing it, about our firms, about our programs. Like that still counts. Cause there's only so many hours in the day. I would love to go down the rabbit hole a minute of like the things you should bill for that you're not.

Laura Thornton (14:28.073)

Yeah.

Katie (14:44.572)

billing for, because I think this comes up a lot. Client gifts to finish out the job. If that's not on your billable sheet, it should be in my opinion, push back on that or tell me what your thoughts are. Yep.

Laura Thornton (14:55.879)

No, same thing. The only thing that I have always struggled with is the photography, because it's such a huge expenditure on any project, and it is of zero value to the client and 100 % value to us. So that is the one thing that is not built in, and we actually do absorb that. And some of that balances out by the staging and maybe them buying the pieces that we've brought into stage for.

Katie (15:05.788)

Yep.

Katie (15:09.724)

Laura Thornton (15:20.933)

for the photography and that might help balance that out a little bit. But that is the one nugget where I struggle with. I don't build that in because it's really like they're letting us back into their home and sometimes it's two days and it's very, you know, it's very intrusive. And so I don't build, that's the one thing that's not built in, but all the gifts that something and kilometers, do you know how like so many women, so many people, so many designers that I want to say, sorry, your miles, your miles, I apologize. Yeah, are not charging for driving.

Katie (15:21.5)

Great point.

Katie (15:31.228)

Totally.

Katie (15:37.34)

Yeah.

Katie (15:42.876)

I'm like kilometers. I didn't think about miles.

Laura Thornton (15:50.052)

to cite every time, not working in how many, like when I price a job, I work in how long that job is going to be, you know it's gonna go over if you're not in control, if it's potentially a different contractor you don't work with regularly, you need to add an extra four to five visits, weeks of visits into that job. Your kilometers should be factored into your miles. We have some toll highways here that are the more efficient way to move around during the day, we bill for that as well, it's built into the flat rate already.

Katie (16:00.508)

Yup.

Katie (16:05.788)

Yep. Yep.

Laura Thornton (16:18.114)

All of these small things that you don't think add up it all is taking away from your bottom line The gas the kilometer miles it's gonna take me a bit You know like all of those small things the toll Britt like those things add up and are taking away from your bottom line And I'll just circle back a little bit because you did say you have to know your numbers That is crucial. There was a few years. My head was in the sand I was only seeing the profit and was never figuring out what was costing

Katie (16:19.356)

So smart.

Katie (16:28.284)

That's okay.

Laura Thornton (16:47.041)

and what was getting taken. Yeah. And again, you don't, right?

Katie (16:47.644)

You're seeing gross, not net. Net's where it's at, folks. If you don't know your net, you don't know what you got in your account. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (16:54.56)

Yeah, you need to know what it takes to run your business. Even if you're, when I worked for home, in my home for many years, you know, you kind of think this doesn't cost me, it does cost. The internet costs money, your cell phone costs money, the computer you sit at costs money. Every program that you have to run your business costs money. There are things every single day that are taking away from your bottom line. So if you think you've profited, you know, let's say $10 ,000 on that project,

Katie (16:58.396)

You totally do.

Laura Thornton (17:23.007)

You did not. Yeah. And then you're like, where is the money? Yeah. I'm looking at my bank account. Why is there only $7 ,000 in there? Well, because it's been costing you money months after months to run that job. And so you have to know your numbers. It is imperative to take your head out of the sand, sit down. And once you do, it's addictive. It is right. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (17:24.795)

You are lying to yourself. This is a hard moment of truth for you, but you are lying to yourself. Yeah.

Katie (17:47.612)

and it's liberating and empowering and all these things that we need to feel anyway. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

Laura Thornton (17:52.734)

It's like drapery. I always say to my clients, you do it once, you tell me you don't need it, you're gonna call me back and I'm gonna do the whole house. I hear it's like tattoos, I don't have one, but I hear it's the same idea. So that's what I'm gonna tell you is gonna happen with your accounting. You're gonna end up figuring out and then you're gonna wanna be more efficient in your accounting. Because you're gonna wanna see that profit margin grow. You're gonna wanna see how can I get this to be bigger and better and that is something that, yeah, that's the goal.

Katie (18:16.54)

Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting too. And the commercial side, when we do photography, the way we don't absorb those fees, cause we turn around and we sell them back to the client. I mean, it's built into the job costs because then we say we pay the commercial licensure on it. So then they can use it when they're marketing those buildings, which is really helpful. But to your point about, yes, your home office or your cell phone or in the States, that's all tax deductible.

Laura Thornton (18:31.869)

right.

Katie (18:40.86)

If you're not taking that tax deduct or talking to your CPA about it, you're leaving more money on the table again. Like all of that matters so very much. And like you said, it is addictive. You want to see it grow and grow and grow. And once you start understanding numbers, it's super fun. I made, I made myself a promise back in the day when I was in my twenties and I used to be terrified to log into my checking account because it was my first job out of college. And I think I was making like 25, 30 grand and it was just pitiful at best. And

Laura Thornton (18:49.052)

Right. Yeah.

Katie (19:10.428)

I just sat myself down. I was like, Katie, every time you feel the fear, you must go log in and look. And I was like, it's going to be so hard. It was the best life decision ever because it tapped down the fear. And to your point about empowerment, put you back in the seat of empowerment. Okay. This is where my numbers are at. If I don't like it, go get a side hustle. If I don't like it, find a new job. If I don't like it, fix the situation. And the same is exactly true of a firm. So.

You've created this beautiful program to help designers through this because it's really great to talk about this. Designers know that we know we need to do it. The big question becomes the how, and then there's the overwhelm, right? Like, okay, how many programs am I going to need? And then like, Calvin, do I have to look at this and how does this really work? And everyone says flat fee, but I don't know if that's right for me in my area of the country or the world. So you, you poured your heart and soul into creating this program. Tell us about it.

Laura Thornton (20:10.748)

Well, if I think if I knew how much time it was going to take, I might not have done it. Like, I'm not gonna lie to you. It was, it is still, because I'm sure you're the same. I'll be driving, minding my own business, singing a song, and all of a sudden an idea comes and I'm like, I gotta add that, because designers need to hear this. And it's things we do every day because we've been doing this for, I always say, we're seasoned, right? Like, I've been doing this decades. Well, I'm older than you, but.

Katie (20:16.092)

Right?

Katie (20:25.308)

Totally.

Katie (20:35.676)

really nice way of saying we're old over here in perimenopausal but you know barely my gosh

Laura Thornton (20:40.444)

So I've been doing this 27 years and I just wish this existed when I was coming up. How many years I would have saved and how much money I left on the table actually makes me physically sick. Physically sick. And you're right, there are a lot of programs. There really are. And I've taken them and they've been of great value in some areas. Like things change and it's always great to hear what someone else does or to see if and if there's overlap in your

Katie (20:48.86)

Yeah.

Katie (20:55.548)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (21:10.748)

process or whatever the course is, I think that that's great. And then you can always learn something fabulous. The one thing I couldn't find was the one thing that I was being asked about. Because I too, you were on my podcast and I get lovely DMs from all women. I've never heard from a man, so I think I can confidently say that women designers, stagers, decorators, anyone in our design enthusiast world. And the questions were consistent on how to charge, how to make money, how to do. And it became very obvious. So I went looking.

Katie (21:21.212)

Hmm.

Laura Thornton (21:40.38)

to see does it exist? And I couldn't find anything. And I've read the books and I've done that, like I've tried to find this information myself over the years and just came up with what worked here with us. And of course, to your point, it doesn't mean it works everywhere, but you know your business best. Just like if you have a child, you know your child best. You know if flat feet isn't gonna work in your area, then that's okay. You do what works best for you. But there are 30 other modules that might help you.

be able to build in a way that will make you more profitable, which is the goal. But that was the commonality is that there wasn't this, didn't exist, no one was teaching it. So I had gone to High Point with some other designer friends of mine who are American. And as we're walking around, and I'm asking questions in the same showrooms, and they were like, how do you know? It became very clear. And to be honest, two of them were the ones that are like, you need, like, I will buy this from you, when are you gonna do it? And I was like, I'm not doing that. And then it became, okay.

Katie (22:13.564)

Yep. Yep.

Katie (22:31.996)

Mmm.

Katie (22:36.988)

I'm busy over here.

Laura Thornton (22:39.932)

Yeah, and so now it's snowballed and I'm a person that once I write it as a thing to do, it's going to happen. And so it's been nine months. Again, I didn't have the time, but now it's become something where I have made the time. It is important. It needs to be out there. Because even if 50 % of this applies to you and you can increase your rates 50 % more next year and then 50 % more the next year and 50, you're doing better.

Katie (22:48.636)

Love that.

Katie (22:54.716)

Yeah.

Katie (23:09.82)

Absolutely. I always say it's the 80 20 like give me 80 % of the way there 20 % is never gonna fit think about going into a dressing room We're happy to get a 50 % success, right? Right. I mean my gosh, we're all shaped so differently as women size 10 I love it good housekeeping way back in the day did 10 size 10s on their cover like 20 years ago I was like there's no way and totally totally so take that same, you know model and apply it to your business if you can figure out

Laura Thornton (23:10.396)

Right? Yes.

Katie (23:35.484)

80%, 50%. If we can get you further down the road to profitability, that's where we want you to be.

Laura Thornton (23:40.54)

Katie, do you know how many designers do not charge for their consultations? When I say I char... That's your time! That's your time!

Katie (23:45.276)

Why? If you're out there, can you DM, DM Laura and us and tell us why you're not charging for your consultations, folks.

Laura Thornton (23:53.116)

It, and back in the day I didn't either, I remember thinking like, why am I driving all the way downtown, an hour and a half, it takes us to get from Toronto, all the way back, then I'd get there, and they forgot about the appointment. And I'm out of time, I'm out of miles and kilometers, I'm now thinking it's me, I'm going through my phone, did I get the dates wrong, did you get, it's because I wasn't important to you. It didn't cost them anything, they could forget about me. And, yeah.

Katie (24:06.268)

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Hmm.

Katie (24:16.22)

Yeah. Yeah. We call that skin in the game in the States. And it is, there's nothing wrong with asking a potential to have skin in the game. You can book a discovery call. We can chat.

Laura Thornton (24:25.756)

Yep, it actually makes you more, I think it makes you more professional, makes your time of value. I think that is perceived as a more professional way, but a lot of designers and decorators are not charging for their initial two -hour consultation, hour consultation in home. That is billable time. Why would you give that away for free?

Katie (24:31.196)

I totally agree.

Katie (24:45.788)

And they're going to ask you questions. They're going to say, well, what would you do here? What would you do there? What do you think about? And all of that knowledge we were talking about that your doctor has accrued to be able to come in there and say, you're carrying that into the consultation. That is a huge, huge value. It's interesting. My favorite restaurant here actually requires a credit card be put on file to make a reservation. Have I ever missed a reservation? Not a one. One, I love the restaurant. Two, it's super bougie and fabulous. But three,

Laura Thornton (24:47.548)

100%.

Laura Thornton (25:05.404)

Yes. Yeah, a lot of them are doing that now. Right.

Katie (25:15.196)

If they're going to hold a table and they're going to assign wait staff for me and they're going to make sure that the wine list is present and accounted for and I can get a bottle and there's enough ingredients in the kitchen. Fine. Go ahead. Put my credit card on file. I don't show it gets charged. I do show it doesn't matter. I just think it's a really, it's a fair way to do business with a professional. This isn't Walmart grocery delivery where it gets dropped on your doorstep, whether you're there or not.

We're looking for a different client experience that validates once again that profitability and endorses who you are before you even step foot over the threshold of their residence. And that's okay.

Laura Thornton (25:54.652)

Well, I always say we're a luxury service, period. It doesn't matter if, like, our clientele have made enough money in their month that they have money left over to hire someone to help them purchase and make things look pretty for items they don't actually need. How many houses have you walked into and they don't already have a sofa? They have a sofa. They just want a new one. They just want one that's prettier. So we are in the business of aesthetics, period.

Katie (26:11.26)

Yep. Yep.

Katie (26:16.432)

Right? They want a more fabulous sofa. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (26:23.484)

It's all vanity, it's all pretty, it's all luxury. It doesn't matter if you said to me, well, I'm buying at IKEA. I don't care where you're buying. You're still a luxury service to that individual. And so that is where we need to always be thinking about who our client is for starters. Who are you? Yeah, who are you working with? Who are you trying to work with? Who are your services for? If you don't know that, then who are we marketing to? So.

Katie (26:32.444)

Yeah.

Katie (26:42.012)

For sure, know your target persona. Yep.

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (26:53.052)

There's just that lesson right there. And then all the different...

Katie (26:55.388)

Go back and listen to the bell go go to episode. If you have questions about that folks, it'll be in the show notes. Go back and listen. If you don't know your target persona, because then no wonder you're not profitable. You don't even know who you're talking to. Yeah, I'm sorry. Keep going.

Laura Thornton (27:06.172)

Yeah, who are you selling these items to? no, that's okay. But then there's all the different ways you can charge in your process. And that is the key, I think, to just the baseline. Forget that's... And to be honest, we cover that in module one, because those are just the basics. And then the other five weeks is how are we getting you more bottom line? And what does that look like and how to do it and how to not be comp shopped and how to... All the things that you probably always wonder what other designers are doing, this is how you're getting to be profitable.

Katie (27:19.484)

Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (27:35.708)

And I think the other little nugget is a lot of designers always say to me, but I'm not doing the full home design. And they think that's a disservice. And it's not. Not every project is sexy. Not every project is the full design. We do full design. And then we have peppering in of all these other small ones that add up to a lot of money at the end of the year.

Katie (27:58.076)

Totally. Don't blow your nose on that powder bath. No pun intended. You might be surprised about how much that, you know, grasscloth wallpaper runs. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (28:01.212)

Right? Yeah.

That's right. Wow, we just did a wallpaper for a client with $7 ,000. $7 ,000, yeah, for a powder room.

Katie (28:09.692)

Yeah. It's interesting. We just did that in a leasing office and yeah, it was ridiculous. They love the effect. Super dramatic. It's Phoenix. It needed it. It's an aesthetic town. 100 % beauty like an adored it, but you know, yeah, sometimes you just don't, you don't know what you don't know, which I think is the value of taking courses like this. Like even things. So if you're sitting here and you're like, but I feel really guilty that we're only catering to the top 1 % of 1%, right? We get this a lot.

Laura Thornton (28:24.572)

Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (28:29.276)

Exactly.

Katie (28:38.94)

Yeah, but I'm not like making a difference in society. Okay, I hear you. In fact, that's why we started our corporate social responsibility wing, ColorWorks Cares, where we go and we do give backs. So dented, damaged, multiples, duplicates, sometimes they ship two instead of one, right? We'll always go back to the vendor and we'll say, we wanna donate to this to a nonprofit in this community that does X, Y, and Z. It's a domestic violence shelter, right? It's a homeless empowerment program where they're getting people on their feet and giving them home.

Habitat for Humanity is a big one in the states. Things like that. Go find a way to take all of this and do this or build it back into your profitability model and say 1 % of the job is always given to a local. Don't get political people. You'll piss people off, especially in the United States. Don't get political, but pick something neutral that empowers people and say 1 % of the job cost. We do a give back. And then build...

Laura Thornton (29:21.375)

hahahahah

Katie (29:34.236)

So that you can find a way to say we're not just in business for the top 1%. We're actually taking 1 % and giving it back to our community. It is.

Laura Thornton (29:39.613)

Right. And it feels good too. We do the same. We have a line of candles that we work with this company and they do custom scents for us with our own. And it is bougie and it's very lux driven, of course. However, every time we do that, the equal amount of money goes into the children's mental health. So it's, and it's on there and it comes in a beautiful package with the note saying that this is, you know, all the proceeds, like we are not.

Katie (29:47.42)

Love it.

Katie (29:53.148)

Yeah, but it's unique and fabulous.

Katie (30:00.156)

Love it. Love it.

Laura Thornton (30:07.1)

you know, making money and then we get clients who want to rebuy it. So every time they rebuy from us, you know, it takes us time and effort to do all the buying and delivering, but we don't mind because we know that the proceeds are actually, it makes us feel good, it makes them feel good, plus it's a nice item to have in your home and we usually customize this end to the client. But it's a nice little give back that way too. Right, and you can...

Katie (30:10.556)

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (30:26.332)

I love that.

Yeah, it's like bomba socks or tom shoes buy a pair give a pair, you know, like That's a really cool way to do it. You do find the ways when you were building out your program Did you have any i'm making a really long? now we i've been talking to you too long and i'm getting my canadian o's for process and program But did you have as you were building out your program did you have any aha moments that you're like This this is the nugget

Laura Thornton (30:33.628)

Right. Yeah. We find the ways. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (30:44.316)

yeah.

Katie (30:58.492)

that I really want to share or this is, cause it's an extensive program. What were the aha moments even for you 27 years into this career that really jumped out at you as you were putting it on paper.

Laura Thornton (31:09.434)

So I think designers and decorators will get this. You know when you're designing a kitchen for your client and you tell them to stop just moving every day how you just do things rote? You don't put thought to how you function in the space and you're just doing it. I want you to start writing down what doesn't work or how far are you walking to go get those knives? How far are you walking to go do? Are you walking with a pot of water or hot water too far? Like we get them to stop, slow down and start thinking about what they do every day without thinking.

Katie (31:18.716)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yep.

Katie (31:26.14)

No.

Laura Thornton (31:37.626)

they just do it while they're making dinner happen and start writing down the things that you want to fix. And so when I started to build this course out, there were things that I didn't even, you just don't even realize you do it anymore. You just do it. And when you have to start writing it down and you see it, I'm like, I don't even remember how I started to do this, but I really can see that this will help. And that would be markups, how to know how to mark up and where to mark up. And honestly, I think the biggest thing for any of us in this industry is what is your,

Katie (31:38.332)

Yeah.

Yep.

Katie (31:48.444)

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (31:59.26)

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (32:07.575)

What are you, there's gonna be a couple, but what are your top profiting items in your business that you sell on every project? What is giving you the biggest ROI? Where are you making the most money? Where are you making the least amount of money?

Katie (32:12.764)

Yes, know your KPIs. Know your KPIs.

Katie (32:23.292)

and stop doing it unless it supports the high profit items. Walk away. I think as women we're so afraid to walk away, right? Like if I stop doing it, but Laura, but, but, but, but stop, but like take the, ooh, I like that. I love that.

Laura Thornton (32:24.854)

Right.

Right. You got it.

Laura Thornton (32:36.438)

Yeah, or fix it in a way that can be, like, I'll just give you an example. So again, walking around High Point with some designer friends and, you know, they were talking about these case goods and I said, I'll walk in the showroom with you, but I won't buy, I don't buy a coffee table. I haven't bought a coffee table in over 20 years. And they all looked at me like, why would you not buy? I'm like, well, A, yeah, A, there's only 15 to 20 % profit margin on that. So there's zero value for me.

Katie (32:56.732)

What is your problem?

Laura Thornton (33:03.158)

Not that that's not decent. So anyone who sells them all the time, good for you. I am not somebody who needs to have my work look exactly like what you find in the magazines. In fact, I do not want that. That's just me. But my clients tend to want to, when they get home, because a lot of them own their own businesses, they run like we do, long hours. When you come home, you want ultimate comforts. And typically that includes the ability to kick your feet up without being on a lazy boy.

Katie (33:07.548)

Right.

Katie (33:15.932)

love that.

Katie (33:25.916)

Yes.

Laura Thornton (33:29.526)

I always say I have one lazy boy, he's my husband, his name is Derek, and he's not lazy, but he's the only lazy boy I'll ever own. So, you know. So, I know. Yeah, yeah, and he's not, but like.

Katie (33:30.14)

Yes.

Katie (33:39.804)

I'm sure that Derek loves Harry that he is owned by his wife. I just want to say, Derek, you're going to get some florals from us over here at ColorWorks. We're just going to let you know we see you.

Laura Thornton (33:47.67)

And he's the best. He really is. He puts up with me and my crazy. But like he, I will never own a lazy boy. There, I could never have the, I could never do it. Right. Yeah. Like it, yeah. Like I itch. Like it makes me, it makes me itchy. Yeah. Yeah. Can't do it. Can't do it. No levers. I don't care. You can tell me they have switches now. I don't care. It's not happening. But my point is, is that I want people to have the ultimate comfort. So.

Katie (33:53.5)

awesome. I'm with you. It just makes my heart shrivel. Yeah.

Yes, it's like walking into a cobwebs and you just start patting yourself and you're like, I just, yeah. Yeah.

Katie (34:17.276)

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (34:17.622)

I always will push an upholstered ottoman, A, because I make 100 % markup on furniture, 100%. And my fabrics, yeah, but it's also uber comfortable. In addition to that, I might get the pushback, well, what do I do if I have food? Well, that's not a problem. We're gonna sell you a tray. And now we're gonna decorate that tray for you. So not only have I made your life more comfortable and more elegant,

Katie (34:24.443)

Yep, that's what we do. If you're not doing that, go back. Go back and revisit it.

Katie (34:37.052)

Welcome to a tray, yeah.

Laura Thornton (34:44.79)

I've made more money, plus I've sold you a tray and all the stuff that goes on it. And at the end of the day, it's a much prettier picture. It absorbs sound, which we all know that every room needs, especially as the ceilings get higher and higher. So as much as it sounds like it's just about the dollars and cents, and I learned that it did absolutely help my bottom line, it also hits a lot of other things. And it's a great sales tool for any designer to be able to say that's a custom piece. So when our clients...

Katie (34:55.292)

Very.

Katie (35:06.364)

Hmm.

Katie (35:12.412)

Absolutely.

Laura Thornton (35:13.238)

have the ability to tell their friends and family, no, no, you can't have that. And I can't tell you where I got that because our designer had it custom made. They love that. Our clients love that. Yeah.

Katie (35:20.828)

Yeah.

Totally, totally. Yep. Well, it's like the custom candle, which I think is a brilliant idea. I mean, how great is that? We specified a scent for you based on, once again, we're offering a luxury service. It's about them. It's about them coming home to a place that is lovely and embraces them. Or as Michelle in Pants says, gives them a big hug at the end of the day. Right? Everyone wants a hug at the end of the day.

Laura Thornton (35:43.19)

Yeah.

Katie (35:46.46)

And I think to provide that when you provide that to them. And then how many referrals come out of that statement? Well, you can have that. My designer created it. Who's your designer? That's the next question. Who's your designer? Because I need her to make me one. Right? I mean, what a great, great system.

Laura Thornton (35:54.518)

That's right.

That's right. Yeah. And it is, it's, and you know that they usually, the referrals come and they want the same thing, which of course you can't give them, but then we're like, no, we can, we can do better. We can find something else for you. But it's knowing those numbers. So I highly recommend you have to do a deep dive constantly into your numbers and be on it to see where your profit margins are the highest. And then those are the elements that you need to be pushing more and more often. And you know, if, if you want what's in the magazines,

Katie (36:06.204)

Totally.

Katie (36:09.98)

Yeah.

Katie (36:18.908)

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (36:26.038)

to look exactly like what's in the magazines and they actually don't need you as a designer. So you need to be thinking ahead and that it doesn't date. So yeah. And the beauty is if you do start getting into any custom furniture, your custom manufacturer will happily redo their own furniture years down the road. Like we're in a, right now I think we have five or six clients that have come back in the last from 10 to 12 years ago who now want all their furniture recovered because the kids are older.

Katie (36:29.436)

Yep. Yep.

Totally.

Katie (36:45.02)

Yeah.

Laura Thornton (36:53.11)

The dog died. They're not worried about them working so hard for them. Now they want, now I want a white sofa because we're older and it's just us and we can do it. And so we are refinishing so much furniture that we've done 10, 12 years ago. They're not looking retail. They're not going somewhere else. They're coming back. That's right. Yeah. And it's quality pieces. So we're still getting the work years later.

Katie (37:08.284)

No, because they know what they have. That's so powerful.

Katie (37:16.348)

Well, and that's the big thing. I think we had talked about it when I was on your show. But if you are not selling your furniture, you are not in business. Like I was lovingly say design fees pay the bills, furniture is where we make the money. And right. And so like by the time you do marketing expenses, overhead expenses, all the things, that's great. I could scroll up into design bills, but like.

the furniture, I mean, but like you said, you have to start measuring it. It may be different for you depending on what your hourly rate is or what your structure is, but start down the path of at least kneeling that down so you could figure out, yeah, what are your KPIs? And then what that does is it creates this beautiful cycle where that starts informing your marketing, right? If you find you're making all of your money off of kitchens, then market the hell out of kitchens, right? But you don't know where to spend your marketing money until you understand what's actually making money for you.

Laura Thornton (38:08.328)

And to your point, the furniture, the decorating is more profitable. Yeah, like that's where you need to be. Yeah, that's what you're focusing on. You might make more, you might make actual more money in the construction renovation, but they usually take far longer. Like they're usually up to two year projects. And so is that, are you actually making as much money when you have to allow for that project for that amount of time?

Katie (38:08.796)

What do you?

Yep. Always.

Katie (38:23.836)

Yep. Yep.

That's true too. That's true too.

Hmm.

Laura Thornton (38:36.36)

So it might look really good as the bottom dollar, but you need to pepper in a lot of projects that are solely decorating to be able to balance those out.

Katie (38:36.86)

Katie (38:44.956)

That's such a good point because it brings back up gross versus net again. And I love that you're making the link. This is so important. Time is money. What wealthy, wealthy business owners, wealthy clients, what do they do? They buy back their time. That's what you were brought in, right? You were brought in to buy back their time. They don't wanna go down to the furniture store and try to figure out what kind of springs. Is it eight way hand tied? Is it kiln dried wood? Is it?

That's why you were brought in. They want their time back, their time back with their kids, their time back with their family. And by the same token, you should want that for yourself. So figure out how to make profits so you can buy back that time. Like you referenced at the beginning of the conversation, you know, 20 minutes, I can do this. I can chisel this out where it used to take me. Yes, buy back your time, but build a client for that. That's very fair. What do you do to the, or what do you say to the designer that says,

Laura Thornton (39:31.848)

Right.

Katie (39:36.38)

Laura, I hear you, I'm on board. I totally see this, but I'm so afraid that my clients are gonna see me as money driven.

Laura Thornton (39:43.656)

Well, again, I'm unapologetically in business to make money. We all have to be, or why are we in business? You can't apologize for choosing to be your own boss. We all did it for a reason. Do we remember why we did it? This is one of the things that I always say to designers. Why did you go out on your own? What were you hoping? And you just nailed it on the head. The first thing was time.

Katie (39:51.356)

I love it.

Laura Thornton (40:10.248)

I wanted to be more with my children or I wanted to have my own ability to run my own calendar and the ability to make more money. Because we all could see working for somebody else how much they were billing for our time and we could all see the potential of what possibility was there for us to make. Those were the two initial. And then we get caught up in the running it every day that we forget to stop, pump the brakes and think, what did I start doing this again for? So.

Katie (40:32.988)

Yep.

Laura Thornton (40:38.056)

I don't think if anyone ever came at me and said something to me of that effect, which has never happened in 27 years, I've never had a client say something to me that I'm price driven, then maybe that's not the right client for you. Maybe that's not the right person you should be working with if someone is A, that bold to say that to you. But my response would be, and I am very confident in myself and my abilities and my business,

Katie (40:50.332)

Yeah. Mm. Mm.

Laura Thornton (41:04.04)

I am in business to make money. It wouldn't be a profitable business model to not be making money. I can't keep the lights on. I couldn't pay the heat. We'd be sitting here in the cold or I wouldn't be in my office as we are right now. But I've never had anyone push back. If you're not comfortable with jumping to probably where you should be charging, then I would say do it slowly until you gain that confidence and see if there's pushback. If your clients are pushing back, then...

Katie (41:10.812)

I'm not a non -profit. I'm not a 501c3. Yeah.

Laura Thornton (41:33.352)

Let's see where we can get you to somebody else or maybe you adjust until you're a bit more comfortable. But if you ask people for their opinion, if you're going to ask people ahead of time, I'm gonna raise my rates and you do, you know, and you're not sure you're not, then of course there's gonna be the what? No, but if you are confident, say, you know, moving forward, things are going, everything has gone up in the world in the last two years, everything. If your rates aren't moved up, there is a bigger problem, yeah.

Katie (41:44.86)

No, nope.

Katie (41:57.052)

By double digits. Yep, yep.

Laura Thornton (41:59.944)

Yeah, like just to get groceries the other day was $68 for a wee grocery bag of, like everybody's rates have gone up, every cost of living has gone up, your rates need to adjust accordingly.

Katie (42:11.132)

Agreed and unapologetically. I think that's like the golden nugget in this. I mean, what would you say is the golden nugget of this conversation? Well, before we get to that, I need to say, what is the name of your program? Where does everybody find it?

Laura Thornton (42:23.048)

The program is called the Profit Academy for Interior Designers and it's not just for interior designers, it would be for interior decorators and stagers, anyone in this world. But there is a lot of websites and a lot of things that are called the Profit something, so I needed to make it a little bit easier to find. So the Profit Academy for Interior Designers is what the program is called. It will be linked through the Business of Beautiful Spaces website as well for the podcast. It's going to go live to be able to purchase on...

Katie (42:30.268)

Sure. In the industry.

Laura Thornton (42:50.408)

June 18th and we are starting the first session on July 1. I will send you the link so that you can have it in your show notes. But it's six weeks. So within six weeks, you could be increasing your profits for the rest of the year. You don't have to wait until January 2025. You can start applying these even if you want to do it small increments or just figure out what works best for you in your area. This is where I think you can start and at least start changing your bottom line.

Katie (42:54.94)

Love it.

Katie (42:59.036)

That would be fabulous.

Do it over the summer.

Laura Thornton (43:19.496)

your profit margin.

Katie (43:21.564)

which is your take home and whether you're going to Hawaii on vacation or not this year. Let's get real golden nugget of this conversation. If our audience leaves with just one thing you want them to hear, what would it be?

Laura Thornton (43:22.856)

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yep.

Laura Thornton (43:34.056)

Be unapologetically in business to make money. Be profitable.

Katie (43:38.556)

That gives me goosebumps. I feel like every woman needs to hear that. Every woman needs to hear that. Own your finances. Don't let them own you. Own your business. Don't let it own you. Own your profits. Don't look at it as a jobby or a hobby. Run your business unapologetically. Laura, such a good conversation. Thank you. Beautiful, beautiful. And we can't wait to see your program roll out. Our pleasure. Right back at you.

Laura Thornton (43:51.4)

bright.

Laura Thornton (43:59.656)

Thank you for having me, I really appreciate it. It's always fun talking to you, Katie.