How do you build a portfolio when you don't own the intellectual property rights? What questions should you ask an attorney before working together? What do you really need to know—legally speaking—about starting and running a business? I'm thrilled to have David Adler in today's episode is part of our Creating a Design Business Series for this conversation about legalities. 

No matter if you’re wanting to start a business or grow your design firm, there are things you need to do to legally protect yourself. It's impossible to keep up with the changing legal landscape while also running a successful firm, which is why getting an attorney involved early in your business more than pays for itself. Stick around for a great conversation and take note of the big legal issues on the horizon in our industry.

In this episode, we cover: 

• How to build a portfolio when you’re an employee at a design firm

• Why it’s important to find an attorney before you need one

• What questions you need to ask an attorney prior to working with them

• How much does it cost to work with an intellectual property attorney

• Do you need to hire an attorney within your state

• What legal protection do you actually need to start or grow a design firm

• When to involve an attorney when you have a difficult client

• How to use a contract to keep clients from shopping around

• The big legal issues on the horizon in the design industry

• What designers typically miss about the law and legalities of design

If you feel more prepared to tackle the legal side of starting and running a design business, share this episode with a friend or on social media. Make sure to tag David and me so we can thank you and cheer you on!

More about David Adler

In 1999, David Adler launched a boutique law firm blending Corporate law and Intellectual Property counseling business in the areas of Arts, Entertainment, Media, Communications, and Technology. He has been designated by his peers as an Illinois Leading Lawyer and an Illinois SuperLawyer® in the areas of Intellectual Property and Entertainment & Media Law. He received his law degree from the DePaul University College of Law in 1997 and a double BA in English & History from Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. Outside the practice of law, Mr. Adler was an Adjunct Professor teaching Music Law at DePaul College of Law, formerly chaired the Chicago Bar Association's Media & Entertainment Law Committee and is currently a member of the Illinois State Bar Ass’n Intellectual Property Committee and the for the ISBA Privacy and Information Security Law Section Council.

Links and Mentioned Resources

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More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This episode offers general information, not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship is formed by listening. Legal situations vary; always consult a qualified attorney for personalized guidance.

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:01.407)

Hey David, welcome to the show.

David (00:03.596)

Hi, thanks for having me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:05.706)

We are so glad that you're here. You probably don't hear that as an attorney very often. We are so glad that you're here. And...

David (00:11.904)

I think it depends on the context.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:14.826)

A very fair point, very fair point. So I really have been excited to have this conversation to start from a hierarchical perspective, and then we're gonna drill down into some meat and potatoes of legality specifically as it pertains to interior design. So many of our audience members have either started a firm or want to start a firm and are working at a much larger firm and the one...

question that we have come up with over and over again is, how do I build a portfolio to strike out on my own when it isn't my intellectual property and it belongs to the firm that I'm at? Let's just start there, because I think your portfolio is everything as a designer, and you either have it or you don't, and it's kind of the litmus test of the quality of your work. So what do you do with that?

David (01:00.276)

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I think it kind of has a couple different issues involved, not just the intellectual property issues on their own, but likely contractual issues or employment related issues with the employer. For designers who are building their portfolio, obviously having a good relationship with your employer is important. I think, I should step back and just talk about.

who owns what in the employment context, right? So without getting into the weeds on copyright law, when you're an employee working within the scope of your employment, your employer owns all of the work product, all of the intellectual property rights associated with the work that you do for your employer, as long as it's within the scope of your employment. So for most designers working for a design firm, anything that you're doing for your...

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:32.77)

Please do.

David (01:58.652)

employer is going to be owned by your employer. It's the way the law works. Now that's not to say that you don't have some sort of fair use right to

David (02:13.944)

to show your work maybe on a limited basis, you know, and it's important to kind of understand like what copyright rights are, right? And if you're the owner of the copyright in a creative work, that means that you have the exclusive right to display it publicly, to distribute it, to make copies of it, to make derivative works. So any sort of use, right? And so...

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:14.51)

to what you've created basically. Yeah.

David (02:43.068)

including photographs of a project that a designer works on in the designer's portfolio implicates both that public display right, the reproduction right, and possibly the distribution rights. So in a perfect world the designer would get permission from the employer. However, the law recognizes certain exceptions and in most cases if a

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:04.195)

Hmm.

David (03:10.804)

designer kept their you know these photographs are kept copies of their work you know and only displayed them maybe to the client in private you know just as an example of projects they've had experience with you know in all likelihood that would be okay. It's a little bit easier to kind of say things that you really shouldn't do so don't take pictures and put them up on your Facebook or your Instagram or don't put them on your social unless you have.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:27.096)

Hmm.

David (03:40.24)

explicit permission to do so. Even if you know I think even putting them up on a private website which you know is password protected is still kind of pushing the bounds of risk. I'm not saying you can't do it but I have seen I've seen scenarios where a former employer has objected to a former employees use of photographs in that scenario. And the problem is you know it's sort of it just invites.

further dispute and argument, right? And the idea is that you as the designer wanna get out there, you wanna launch your career, you wanna be able to say, this is my work, this is representative of what I can do without running afoul or stepping on anybody else's toes. So again, I think it begins with a conversation with the employer.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:25.858)

That's really hard. Yes, yes.

David (04:31.876)

Yeah, intellectual property rights are very nuanced and you have a lot of overlap in creative areas and in interior design is incredibly robust creative endeavor. You know, it's there's so much creative work going on and so many different elements of the process that are creative and are protectable to some degree or another. Photographs and things like that are probably the most common aspect of the design process that have.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:36.398)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:59.714)

Hmm.

David (05:00.352)

you know, these rights attached to them. So, but there's other aspects to it. So it's important and it's not easy, you know, intellectual property to the best of my knowledge isn't really taught at design school, at least not the nuances and.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:13.326)

You're correct.

David (05:15.604)

You know, even large design firms sometimes just have, you know, a lack of understanding or exposure to it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:20.025)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:27.478)

I think it's really tough, especially as the employer, because you don't want to see some of your best people creating this work walk out the door. By the same token, you want to help them succeed professionally, and in all reality, all of marketing anymore, I shouldn't say all, but I feel like it's about 90% of it, is done in a digital format that's out there where it can be easily discoverable. That's the point, right? So how...

Is there a way, it really just does come down to the conversation, right? Because it really isn't an easy way to put yourself out there in a public format to secure new clients without just being transparent and honest with your current employer.

David (06:11.912)

Right. I think, you know, my advice has always been get permission first, you know, and I know there are some people out there who think they're a little bit, you know, a little bit on the maverick, you know, kind of bleeding edge and say, you know, ask for forgiveness, not for permission. And, you know, and that can be a very expensive way to find out that that's not a not good operational advice. But, you know, you also have to keep it in context. We talked a little bit about photographs. You know, it's possible for the designer.

to maybe take some photographs of their own work and with their own camera, whether it's cell phone or something else. If they were to take those photographs, okay, they would own the rights to those photographs theoretically. It kind of does cross that line of whether those photographs are within the scope of the employment and therefore, regardless of who takes them, owned by the...

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:47.606)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:03.01)

Hmm.

David (07:06.288)

owned by the employer, but I think if they were taken with the intent of just using them for portfolio and not for any other commercial purpose, my guess is, you know, the designer would probably be okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:14.795)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:18.194)

Great, great perspective. You mentioned expense. When I am a new designer hearing this podcast, I'm going to go, why are we having an attorney on? Or I shouldn't say a new designer, but someone who just opened their doors or wants to hang out their shingle. Attorneys are really expensive. And

That's a big investment. My advice is always go find the resource before you need to use it. What is the reason why I should find an attorney? And we're gonna talk about specifically intellectual property attorney in a minute, but why do I need to find an attorney before I have a need for an attorney?

David (07:57.012)

I think that's an excellent question and I think if you if you are out there and you want to start a successful business part of your business part of your process needs to be making sure that you're doing everything the correct way. And so just like you would go out and hire an accountant to manage your accounting function you know there are lots of legal hoops that need to be jumped through. There are regulations that need to be you know followed and you know just other things that you can do.

to limit the risk of being in business. And that's why you talk to an attorney. You have to look at it as an investment. And I agree, some lawyers can be expensive and some situations can be expensive, but if you look at it as an investment at the beginning, you'll be saving money in the long run because it costs a lot more to hire a lawyer to come in and fix a problem.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:33.77)

I totally agree.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:38.381)

Mm-hmm.

David (08:54.292)

than it does to hire a lawyer to avoid the problem in the first place. So, you know, that that's kind of my perspective on that. And then, you know, adding to it, it certainly helps to have lawyers who are familiar with your particular industry. Now, it's a little bit self-serving for me to say that I've been working with interior designers for 25 years, but there are, you know, other industries where you would look to a lawyer who has a specialty or at least

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:07.683)

Mm.

David (09:20.228)

very good working familiarity with your industry so they know the issues and they can help you prepare and navigate around those.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:29.186)

That makes complete sense. And I think, too, you nailed it. If you're listening to this, you said it so well. It is a lot more expensive to fix something than it is to prevent it in the world of law. Well, we don't live in that pond every day, and we don't swim in that pond every day. We don't necessarily always think about that.

If I'm getting ready to hire an intellectual property attorney, what questions do I need to be asking out of the gate? And should I be charged for even asking those questions as I'm trying to find the right person to do this? Do I even have to stay in my own state to find an intellectual property attorney?

David (10:09.24)

Okay, so you got a couple different questions here. Let me see if I can get all of them. Let's just start with the state one. Yeah, right, right. So intellectual property tends to straddle both state and federal law. It tends to be very transactional, although it also has a litigation component just like car accidents and slip and falls and things like that. So, you know, I'd say it helps to have a local attorney regardless. But if you can't find somebody,

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:12.394)

Sorry, stream of thought. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:36.547)

Hmm.

David (10:37.74)

who really kind of meets your needs locally, for certain types of things, having somebody located in another state is fine up to the point that they can, what they can do for you, right? So, there are always limitations to what can be done in certain circumstances. But generally speaking, I mean, most intellectual property attorneys are pretty conversant countrywide.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:50.878)

Mm.

David (11:07.656)

In terms of why do you need an intellectual property attorney in the first place, that really has to do more with the fact that interior design is a very creative industry. So it is one of those industries where intellectual property rights are necessarily part of what you live and breathe. And it's not always thought about and it's not always well understood. When you get into other industries like arts and entertainment, film, music, things like that, everybody understands, okay, these things are really about intellectual property rights.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:25.995)

Hmm.

David (11:38.032)

Even, you know, we talk about patents or, you know, pharmaceuticals or technology development, right? Everybody understands that those things are all about the intellectual property rights. When you talk about interior design, people don't think about things like copyright and, you know, some of the other rights that are related to just the creative process, right? And so having a lawyer, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:43.043)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:01.846)

That makes sense, yeah.

David (12:04.428)

Having a lawyer who understands that part of it is very, very helpful. A lot of lawyers do a lot of corporate work, and many corporate lawyers are very good at contracts work. Most contracts kind of fall within a particular range. Again, as you get into different industries, you get different nuances. But not all corporate lawyers also do intellectual property work. And for that matter, I mean, not all intellectual property lawyers will also do corporate work. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:30.402)

Mm.

David (12:34.128)

It's, you know, I think it's important to have a lawyer who understands both, understands the business side as well as sort of the creative and intangible side.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:44.266)

So what questions should I, as a designer who's either starting a firm or wanting to really grow a firm, when I'm interviewing you, what questions should I be asking of an attorney that they should have a pretty firm grasp on?

David (13:03.18)

Well, the first couple of questions are very general, right? So you want to know how long have you been practicing law, right? So if somebody's right out of law school, they're not going to be quite as experienced as somebody who's been practicing maybe five, ten, fifteen years. And I would say that for most lawyers, the five-year mark is a pretty watershed mark. I think if you, you know, if you're dealing with a lawyer with five years more experience, they're probably highly competent at that point. You know, what is your experience? You know...

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:29.747)

Okay, that's a great tip.

David (13:32.5)

what's your experience in my industry, right? If a lawyer has no experience in your industry or can't speak to the types of projects that they've done with similar types of businesses, there might be a learning curve for them to kind of figure out what it is you do and what it is you need. Now, that might be offset by somebody who's just got a great personality, somebody you really wanna work with, somebody who you think is really, really affordable, and so therefore maybe you're willing to trade off some of that technical competence for

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:59.363)

Hmm.

David (14:01.716)

a little more affordable rate, right? It's kind of up to you. I think there's different factors, but you're looking for somebody who's experienced, somebody who's competent, somebody who's responsive, somebody who's a good communicator, and somebody who understands your business and what your needs are. Speaking from my own experience, early in my career, I worked with many, many startups, many technology startups here in Chicago and then elsewhere, but primarily here in Chicago. So having that experience, working with a new company kind of...

understanding what's the process of getting all the legal ducks in a row and what are, you know, what are all the things? What do new companies need? Do they need contracts? Do they need employment agreements? Do they need trademarks? You know, what are the different things, the legal pieces of the puzzle that need to be completed? And, you know, what's the urgency for some of these things? Does everything need to be done on day one or, you know, is there a way to approach this that, you know,

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:46.742)

Hmm.

David (15:00.148)

you can do it in stages, right? So I think the lawyer that you're looking to hire should be able to explain all of that to you. What you shouldn't expect is a substantive answer, right? You shouldn't call a lawyer for a first time consultation and say, well, my client's doing this and they sent me this email and what do you think I should do about it, right? It's a legitimate question, but you're...

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:03.208)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:13.941)

I'm sorry.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:23.202)

Ugh, that's like the worst time. Yes.

David (15:29.064)

Listen, I get those calls all the time and I'm happy to help the designer. But you know, you can't answer those questions until after you've kind of rolled up your sleeves and understood what the problem is, which you know, me being hired to perform substantive services. I think it is entirely reasonable to ask a lawyer for a free consultation to get a sense of what's their experience, what's their background, what's their interest, do they think they can help you with what you need? All those are very legitimate questions.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:34.434)

Hmm.

David (15:59.358)

and you know they're not substantive those are the foundations of the relationship.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:00.237)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:05.002)

I love that you brought up the troublesome client because it's something we all deal with regardless of what industry we're in or what vein of the design industry we're in, we should say. When do you get the attorney involved when you have a troublesome client? Because I feel like troublesome clients are something we deal with all the time. At what point...

Do you want to have done that homework and interviewed that attorney found out if they understand our industry that they have at least five years of experience as you shared? I love that. That's a great nugget of a watershed moment for legal. How do I know when to call my attorney if I have a client being a real little pill?

David (16:47.052)

So I think it really depends on your comfort level as a business person. I think somebody who is newer to the industry or newer to running their own business, it's probably better to seek help earlier in the process. Just because, you know, unless you've done this in a prior life or you've got experience, you've got a comfort level, you know, it's possible that there may be things that you don't know and you don't know what you don't know. And, you know, you certainly don't want to step on your own toes before it's, you know, before you've even gotten out of the gate.

So I you know, I would say if you're inexperienced or sort of new to the game, you know seek help early But if you know if you're a seasoned business executive and you're used to dealing with These types of issues and you think you can handle it with a couple of phone calls a couple emails and you know You're you're confident enough to stay in your ground No reason not to you know self help is great You know, sometimes these So many. Yeah

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:41.652)

in so many realms.

David (17:45.184)

You know if you can solve the problem on your own then that's wonderful. But you know you also need to recognize that you know there's a point at which you might need to get the lawyer involved. You know and that's you know that's the point where you're not making any progress. Right. So if you're if your conversation is stalled right. You're not you're not continuing the conversation. There is radio silence one side's gone dead. You know and.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:09.671)

Hmm.

David (18:10.248)

you need some kind of communication, you need some kind of decision, you need some kind of action, and that's not happening, I think at that point it's time to pull some additional levers and see, and kind of get some additional help.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:25.75)

great feedback and one thing we always see, especially being involved in different forums with designers, I love tracking what's going on as far as what problems we're facing, what trends we're seeing, inevitably things come, things go. The one thing that never goes away is the constant problem of my clients are shopping my product.

What do you say to a designer who's tired of being shopped by their clients? What can we legally do to protect ourselves from constantly being shopped? Or the client saying, I'm gonna shop these one or two things, you're welcome to order the rest, and they pick the most expensive pieces. How do you navigate those waters legally? Well, also keeping the client relationship intact to the best of our ability.

David (19:12.016)

That's another one of those excellent questions. And it's one that comes up regularly from my own clients, both when they first come to me, as well as after I've been working with them for a while, and even when things are going smoothly. In a perfect world, the contract is the first place to start. So having a contract in place that is very clear on that purchasing role.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:25.239)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:33.838)

Hmm.

David (19:40.4)

in the design relationship and the requirements of the designer. I think for many years designers just understood how their purchasing function worked and the client or the homeowner just sort of accepted it because there was really no way to it was fairly opaque. It was basically trust me you know you've given me fifty thousand dollars here to spend.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:57.795)

Hmm.

David (20:09.492)

I'll spend it wisely. With the homeowner kind of really not knowing what cost what. The internet obviously has changed a lot of that, online retailing, so customers are a lot more informed, and I think they're just questioning things more, which is fine. It just means that the designer needs to be very, very clear about how they purchase. They need to, if possible,

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:17.922)

Sure.

David (20:37.836)

have some type of exclusivity for that purchasing function. And that can be addressed a number of different ways. It has to be in the contract, right? You can't expect exclusivity to just be on a wink and a nod. But you can put it in your contract that the designer is the sole source of the products that are specified. You can make that a condition of completion of the design process.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:41.282)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:55.182)

True.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:00.11)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

David (21:06.556)

It's done in other industries. So it's not it's not a foreign concept. And then there's other triggers and levers that you can put into the contract to kind of give the designer some leverage to keep basically disincentivize the client from going out and trying to shop things. I think you see it more in sort of you know.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:07.607)

Hmm.

David (21:29.964)

My designer clients who are at the very high end don't see that issue at all. It's because the level of trust in the... Yeah, the level of trust in the relationship is such that the homeowner just says, I trust you. This is the budget we worked out and I know you'll stick to the budget and I'll be happy with what I get. Then you have other people at the end of the spectrum who are either newer, less familiar, less trusting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:34.086)

Yeah, absolutely not. They're just happy that the problem's getting solved.

David (21:58.744)

People who've been burned before who are you know, just extra cautious this time around and you know They're just looking for a lot more transparency and a lot more information And again the you know, the wholesale purchasing process working with showrooms working with specific vendors working with trades It's just not always well understood at the homeowner side of things So, you know again that all goes back to having a really good contract that's clear in terms of how the designers getting paid

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:01.675)

Mmm.

David (22:27.432)

what the designer's responsibilities are and you know the designer's role in that purchasing function so that the client doesn't you know doesn't do that. And you know kind of to follow on comments to that. Number one is if you've got a client that's always shopping every selection you make maybe you don't want that person as a client. Okay so to me that's kind of a red flag like this is just not going to work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:49.718)

That is a brilliant, brilliant point, yeah.

David (22:53.608)

Yeah I mean you know no amount of money is worth putting up with that much aggravation. So if that's what is on the horizon my advice is to you know walk away. And then you know the other one is it's a business decision right. So you know if you're sourcing something and you know and you have a conversation with a client and they see something and they're like hey you know this is a hundred dollars less would you be okay if we bought that. That's up to you right. If you as the designer can say yeah sure you know go ahead and do that right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:20.526)

Hmm

David (23:22.956)

You don't have to say, oh no, my contract specifies it, everything, and if I let you do that, then I can't do, no, no. You can make decisions like that as a business person.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:23.726)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:36.958)

love that you brought that up because it brings in a level of pragmatism and it's client management. And so while we have all these legalities to protect us and protect our relationship with the client and whatnot, it's also really important I think to use a level of pragmatism. These are human beings that are soft and 70% water and have feelings and whatnot. And there's times when it's just a smart business decision to blow your nose on $100 so to speak.

Because you're preserving the relationship, they feel like they got a win out of it. When they leave and it ends on a happy note, the odds are they're coming back to you for their next project. $100 is really cheap marketing. And that's just how we choose to look at it as a firm. Because there are times, you have to be careful with precedents you set and that you don't get them into bad habits. But by the same token, you gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them.

these legalities are extremely important, but I also feel the implementation of them is equally as important. Is that a fair statement?

David (24:38.964)

100%, I think you have to understand what it means to run a business and what it means to be flexible. And the great thing about having the contract is it gives you the roadmap for your relationship with the client. And you as the business, the person have the flexibility. You have to be pragmatic. As somebody once said, you can't pull the volt over mouse turds, right? So you have to evaluate.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:04.394)

That's a great one.

David (25:08.104)

It's not mine, I heard it from somebody else. But you have to approach the issue at the right level.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:11.231)

I love it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:19.23)

What are the big legal issues you're seeing in our industry or that you even feel like are going to be on the horizon for our industry as we move forward? There's so many moving pieces right now. There's always trends and whatnot, but you also have huge economic components with interest rates being where they are. You have the AI component, which is, I feel like, the equivalent of the internet going online back in the day. It's gonna be revolutionary to our industry. What do you see or forecast potentially

designers need to be aware of as far as legal issues facing our industry.

David (25:53.912)

So I'm not seeing any specific industry trends regarding legal issues in interior design. There are issues in other industries which absolutely affect interior design. For example, there's a big push in some of the bigger commercial states, Illinois, New York, with right to work laws and laws that disfavor non-competes and non-solicits. And so...

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:09.123)

Mmm.

David (26:22.124)

You know one thing that I have definitely seen over the last 10 years is more of my clients being concerned about protecting that client relationship vendor relationships and at least not being not having an Unnecessary risk with employees departing and taking accounts with them, right? There's a legitimate business interest to protect on the one hand absolutely You know employees should be free to go out hang out their own shingle make their mark on the world

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:31.595)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:43.137)

Yeah.

David (26:51.928)

It's all wonderful. I mean, many of my clients do that. At the same time, right, businesses have a right to kind of protect those relationships that they've invested in and that they've developed. And so you just have to strike a balance. So a number of states have passed laws that have now added, you know, strict requirements about what those types of restrictions need to be in order to be enforceable, right? So that's something that might be affecting interior designer firms, larger firms, architectural firms.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:14.754)

Hmm. Yeah.

David (27:22.376)

Another thing, at least here in Illinois, is Chicago has like a new paid time off law going into effect. So I have designed clients who have firms down in the city and so now they've got this new PTO law that they have to comply with, that my suburban clients don't have to comply with. So things like that happen. So it's just, it's important they happen on an annual basis. There's always new legislation coming down.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:23.394)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:32.795)

Oh, interesting.

David (27:52.08)

I see you know ASID is a better source for the trends in the certified designer and the registration laws which I'm fine with. I support those. I think it's great to have a certified interior designer because I have clients who fall under that and I know it's great for their business. It's great for the industry. So you know that's something to watch. Those aren't.

any of those really contractual things. I guess the non-compete, non-solicit things are, because those are coming up more and more. A lot of times I'm being asked by clients to have an unemployment agreement when they're onboarding new employees. So things that talk about confidential information, things that talk about non-solicitation of employees, and things like that. And like I said, there are new legal requirements for those.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:32.802)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:44.958)

Yeah, I think and that's a key point too is keeping up with all of the legalities is so

It's really impossible as well as running a firm, which is why getting an attorney involved early in your business and how you structure it and what you need, I think more than pays for itself, which kind of brings up an interesting concept too. How does insurance play into this legal relationship? Because I see a lot of new firms saying, eh, we're gonna wait on insurance for a minute, or, oh, we're gonna get to that. But errors and omissions and various types of insurances,

I feel like are critical out of the gate and directly impact the relationship that we end up having with our legal team potentially.

David (29:26.996)

Absolutely. Insurance is definitely one of those key areas that you want to look at from the moment you start your business. And it's certainly one of the issues that ticks one of the boxes when I'm working with startups. There's a couple of different kinds of insurance to look at. And before I kind of get into those, it's just when you think about what is the point of insurance, the point of insurance is to have some money for a rainy day.

Right. So, you know, there might be situations where you get sued by a client. They do happen. You know, you could, you know, you get sued by a client. You need to sue a client. There's, you know, their employee has a slip and fall on the job site. There's any number of random occurrences for which we have insurance. So I'm big proponent of having insurance and having the right kind of insurance. General commercial liability insurance.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:56.814)

Because they do happen.

David (30:21.52)

is pretty good will cover most of your bases most of your business related risks things that it may not cover that you would want to talk to your agent about or things like advertising risk because those that might cover claims of copyright infringement or trademark infringement or unfair competition. So those kinds of things that happen in the business world that maybe aren't intentional. So that's one thing to look at.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:34.975)

Mm.

David (30:49.932)

There's also errors and omissions insurance, and that's really professional liability insurance. And that's really for malpractice type situations where you as a professional failed to meet a certain standard. And as a result, your client suffered damages from that. So you might see that like an architect would have errors and omissions, a general contractor would have errors and omissions. For the most part, a designer...

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:05.73)

Hmm.

David (31:17.848)

probably doesn't need errors and omissions, but if you are a registered designer, if you're providing document signing services and things of that nature, and if it helps you sleep better at night to have errors and omissions insurance, this certainly, it is definitely an option. But what I recommend for all of my clients who are looking for that is go out and find a broker who can...

get you the best deal, the best scope of coverage, somebody who'll be your advocate and kind of help you get a good rate from a good company and good coverage. I've also been asked recently about cyber insurance or cyber liability insurance. And I would say as a general rule, I don't see the interior design industry as being like a really hot target because there's not a whole lot of confidential information or financial information or.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:58.725)

Oh, interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:02.939)

Mm-hmm.

David (32:13.644)

health information that designers would have that would really be desirable. However, you know, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. You know, and I would talk to your insurance broker about what that might look like and what that might cost. I'd say if you're a larger firm and you're processing a lot of transactions or, you know, you have some maybe, you know, some data exposure at a larger scale, certainly something to think about.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:19.373)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:38.647)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:42.45)

And as we close out, what do you feel like is one or two things that designers typically miss when it comes to understanding the law and legalities as it pertains to their profession?

David (32:57.6)

You know, I think the biggest misunderstanding really has to do around billing and services and sort of what they can bill for and how they should bill for it. And and kind of understanding how the contract should really mirror the practice, I guess. So for a lot of clients, the the.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:18.527)

Mm.

David (33:26.22)

the process that they use 99% of the time, they don't have a problem. That 1% of the time that they do have a problem, all of a sudden it's like, well, there isn't a proper process or something matched up to that to say, okay, well, this is what we do next. So, you know, that's, I would say the flip side of that coin, because they're highly related, is just the client, managing client expectations.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:45.163)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:55.769)

Oh, it's everything.

David (33:57.517)

Yeah, yeah, you know, you have to have a sixth sense at some times to understand what the client is really concerned about and making sure that you're clear about what you're delivering and what, you know, not what the expectations are, but what your obligations are, right? So you have to marry client expectations with your actual obligations.

And that's, you know, that's client management. And believe me, speaking from my own personal experience, I've been on my own since, you know, I launched my own law firm two years out of law school. I learned the hard way, right? I learned baptism by fire, good client relations, and, you know, and ways not to handle clients. So, you know, it's managing client expectations is key.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:43.35)

I think it's so important. A lot of times we miss.

It totally is. And that's the core of that nugget, I feel like, is communication. There's just so much communication that has to happen. It's not just saying, this is what I'm going to do and doing it. It's saying, this is what I'm thinking about doing. How does it feel to you? OK, then we're going to do it. This is how long it's going to take to do it. These were the hiccups we found while we were doing it. Does this still work for you? How does that feel to you? OK, now that we've done it, how does it feel to you? There's so much communication along the way.

no one ever says, oh, so annoying. I was really over-communicated with during that whole process. You just never hear that. People are always in the dark going, I don't know, I haven't gotten an email. I don't know, I haven't got a phone call. I've been waiting on my chandelier for like, I don't know, six weeks, and they said it was gonna be here in four. And when people, I feel like when you empower them with information, they're so much more capable of adjusting to the reality than having to go out there by the time they're already pissed off that they aren't getting what they want.

David (35:47.936)

Right, right, 100%.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:51.722)

Yeah, great conversation, David. Thank you so much for your time. This was invaluable. We appreciate it more than you know.

David (35:59.1)

Oh, you're very welcome. I appreciate you having me as a guest. So I hope it was useful for the audience.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:04.807)

extremely.