Wouldn’t it be nice to have a step-by-step guide to the construction process (AKA the construction story)? Once you have your contract and are well on your way (especially when working with an architect), you must understand what comes next. It’s about approaching the design process with humility and looking at this as a partnership. And if SDs, DTs, & CDs read like a bunch of alphabet soup, you really don’t want to miss this. 

Kelly Fridline joins me for a thorough walkthrough of the construction process. Everything from that initial call to the final walkthrough. We’re talking about: How to have the best communication and collaboration with contractors and architects? When does construction documentation really begin? How detailed to be with your design sets? What are some tips for female designers on job sites? Get all that and more in today’s colorful conversation. 

In this episode, we cover:

• What the construction story is 

• An in-depth walkthrough of the construction process 

• What interior designers are taught about the construction story 

• When construction documentation really begins 

• The most important pieces of documentation & how it protects you as a designer 

• How to make sure you don’t over or under design from a liability standpoint 

• How to have the best communication and collaboration with contractors as a designer  

• The ideal level at which you need to be designing your drawings 

• How to understand the mindset of the other design teams involved on a project 

• The one thing to never ever do as a designer 

• The nuances of being on a construction site as a female designer 

• How to strike an effective balance between being a highly feminine or domineering female designer 

What has this conversation opened your eyes to about the construction story? We would love to hear from you! Find us on social and say hello! 

More about Kelly Fridline

Kelly Fridline is a dynamic entrepreneur and designer with a passion for helping fellow creatives thrive. As the founder of Kelly Fridline Design, LLC, she's evolved her business from solely interior design and architecture to include Virtual Design Assistance, Renderings, and comprehensive training for professionals in the industry. With a Master of Architecture from Savannah College of Art and Design and more than a decade of design, construction, and virtual collaboration experience, Kelly offers a unique perspective to the building and design industry. 

Links and Mentioned Resources

The Fountainhead 

Presentation By Design

Hard Hat 

Safety Vest 

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Website 

Instagram (Kelly) 

Instagram (Presentation By Design) 

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More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:01.564)

Hey Kelly, welcome to the show.

Kelly Fridline (00:03.734)

Hey, Katie, thanks for having me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:05.964)

We're so excited that you are here because it's a conversation we've been wanting to have for a really long time That when we started working together on a job a while back, we're like we need to tell the construction

story. It's interesting in design school. It's like one of those things that you're like, it comes up but it doesn't come up officially. It's in passing, I feel like a lot of times, instead of fully understanding all of the people integrating into the construction story, what our role is, and fundamentally, what is the construction story? Let's just start there. What is the construction story? What does that even mean?

Kelly Fridline (00:38.498)

Right, well, I'm gonna hark back to like design school in the sense of, so our experience is slightly different and that I went for architecture, you went for interior design. And I remember in school, I'd see all the interior designers and they were just as hard, if not harder sometimes than the architecture students. The truth is though, it doesn't matter what design program you're in, they don't teach, really teach construction.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:42.312)

Do it.

Kelly Fridline (01:06.834)

They'll teach the fundamentals of it, but I think the overall, and I think this is where a lot of designers get confused too when they're doing the hiring process. They expect, hey, I'm going to hire someone out of school. They're going to be my intern, but they're going to know everything. And they don't. You're taught how to design in school. There's a reason why they're doing site plans and they're designing things on Mars. Like...

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:08.326)

Agreed.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:25.663)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:31.152)

Right, I feel like it's very idealistic and not necessarily anchored in reality.

Kelly Fridline (01:36.082)

Right, but there's also a reason why, before you take the NCIDQ or NCARB, they have their requirements of internship hours. You are supposed to work and get experience in the field, so designers who go into it, expecting someone to understand the construction processes and how to build construction documents and all these sorts of things right out of the gate, they're setting themselves up to be frustrated to begin with.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:05.104)

I think that's an absolutely great point. And that's the why to this conversation is this is your idiot's guide to the construction story. We're gonna do this in a half an hour and explain it to you as to how this works and what our role really is in it and knowing those other players. So let me ask you, how would you describe this construction story from start to finish?

Kelly Fridline (02:14.948)

Right.

Kelly Fridline (02:32.278)

When I use the term construction story when I'm training or talking to other interior designers, it's the overall process from the very start of a client reaching out and saying, hey, can I schedule a 20-minute consult with you over the phone to see if like it's going to work, all the way down to getting your certificate of occupancy and being there to do the walkthrough.

And that is where a lot of people don't realize that your whole documentation process before a shovel even hits the ground is part of that construction story. It's part of your building up to limit your own liability and understanding that your contractors and their subs and any kind of architects or additional team members that you're working with.

is going to relate your professionalism based off of that very first meeting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:35.616)

dead on and I can't stress enough you brought up such a key word which is liability. We begin building our liability or protecting our liability right out of the gate which is why documentation in the construction story is everything because when it all falls apart and it seems like on every job there's a fall apart it's somewhere there's a hiccup somewhere in the process and then the fingers start pointing and having your story documented so you

Kelly Fridline (03:42.099)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:05.55)

where you're at is incredibly important.

Kelly Fridline (04:09.194)

And that's part of the contract process. So this is where that initial, so that's a big thing that I found with my background being architecture. And I had started the whole process of taking the exams and I realized that for what I love doing, being licensed isn't necessarily something that I absolutely need. However, I have the experience. I do know the overall contracts required and what is provided by.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:12.436)

starts right out of the gate.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:26.888)

Hmm.

Kelly Fridline (04:37.81)

AIA or the American Institute of Architects. And if interior designers were even provided the ability to look at and understand what these general contracts are, because I feel like contracts are provided by so many sources in the interior design industry versus there's very specific ones that you, if you are part of AIA, you're generally going to go there, right? Um, and this is

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:49.031)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:00.404)

Right. Well, yeah, because they've all been vetted and approved and lawyered up and done it. They've done all the hard work for you.

Kelly Fridline (05:05.69)

Exactly. Well, I mean, there's a reason why I mean, architects have the lobbyists. So that's why they're one of the few professions in the design world that generally is able to make things happen on a federal and political basis, right? It's an extremely old institution that is extremely masculine, right? Versus...

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:30.721)

Which we're gonna get to we have that on the table coming up. So there's your teaser everybody stick around for that part

Kelly Fridline (05:35.31)

Right, but the very first thing after you talk to your potential client is you need to have a really good contract and a contract that also specifies what that copyright and that property is. And that's something that I've found specific in the interior design industry isn't always specified or isn't fully understood. And because I was always taught and.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:00.333)

Mm... Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (06:04.914)

that's in the AIA contracts that from your very first sketch, if you are using trace paper, that documentation is part of your construction documents. Your clients paid for it, it's their property. The difference between what the copyright is as to whether or not they can use it or not is based off of whether your contract specifies for a specific location. So that's where

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:26.397)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:30.792)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (06:32.382)

It's non-transferable in the sense that like you hire an architect for a specific site or an interior designer. The idea is those specifications are specific to that site and that project, which is going to be different if you're hired by a general contractor or an architect or somebody who's doing spec homes, right? That you're doing packages. So that's the understanding that design is going to be used multiple times.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:54.812)

For sure. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (07:01.698)

So that comes down to what is your contract say and based off your scope, what are you charging, right? So that is a huge difference and there's a huge understanding as to what you charge based off of the type of project as well. And...

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:10.097)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:19.416)

Explain that for our viewers that are like, hmm, tell me more.

Kelly Fridline (07:23.17)

So it comes down to, in my mind, liability. So if you're working on, right. So if you're working on a project that's a residential project, there's different codes and requirements for residential and state compliance, right? So there's some states, I use Texas as an example because I worked in Texas. I went from working in a very formal, very graphic heavy architecture firm that we would have sets for,

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:26.585)

always comes down to liability.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:35.228)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:39.081)

Totally.

Kelly Fridline (07:52.838)

a three million dollar house that were 150 to 200 pages of 24 by 36 detailed drawings. I went from there to a design build firm that would build a half million dollar house at the same size as the one in New York and they would build the entire thing with five sheets. And I just remember being like, where is this happy? Exactly. Like where?

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:01.684)

That's insane. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:15.836)

Which is also insane for, where's the happy medium? Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (08:22.454)

does this play in? Because in some cases you are taught to over design and over detail, but there's also a liability of under designing. And you can under, you get up, you have a little bit more leeway with residential, especially again it's by state. So there are counties and areas in the state of Texas that don't even require inspection to get CO for residential.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:27.769)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:52.152)

I find that oddly alarming to think you could get, for those of you that don't know, see a certificate of occupancy. You can move in without an inspection. Literally the whole thing could fall down around your ears if you have a bad contractor and no one's there auditing the project. Yeah, no one's checking in to say, no, you can't just do a two by four, you need a four by six. That's insane.

Kelly Fridline (08:55.149)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (09:04.182)

Right, you don't need a permit.

Kelly Fridline (09:12.294)

Right, there's no, yeah, there's no, yeah, there's no permitting required. And a lot of it is because of the different types of money. So if you're able to be in Texas and you're a rancher and you're building a house and you're able to pay cash, you don't have to go through a bank. And the bank isn't, so the bank doesn't need that, the drawings, they don't need all these different things. It's very, it's...

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:16.964)

Yeah, there's no oversight. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:25.232)

Uh...

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:39.292)

Hmm.

Kelly Fridline (09:40.614)

I say that there's areas in our country that the whole building process is like the wild west where it's like, as even an owner of a property, you have to really understand that you can become severely taken advantage of. And whether, and there is, as we all know within the design business in general,

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:47.348)

Poor Ali.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:00.346)

extremely.

Kelly Fridline (10:08.246)

There are some professional designers who just have no morals either.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:12.924)

Also very true. It's true of every industry.

Kelly Fridline (10:15.742)

And that's where that construction story and understanding the processes and having a firm understanding of what expectations are to begin with. You're the professional. It is, it is your client's expectation that you know what you're doing. You would hopefully not go to a doctor that is supposed to be a specialist. So let's say you go to a, I don't know, a cardiologist, you're going, assuming that, you know, like.

There's someone who could say, I'm a designer. I do everything. You know, okay, yeah, you can do everything, but should you be designing the house? Should you, you know, and there's a reason why some people are within the interior design industry, get their backs up as to the term between interior designer and interior decorator. And I've worked with both. And I think that there is...

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:49.415)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:56.786)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:09.564)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (11:12.898)

from an architecture side of things, there's a point where those lobbyists have really done a very clear job as to the terminology as to whether or not you can call someone an architect, which a lot of people don't even, people in our industry don't even understand that. I've run across so many designers that are like, the architect, and then I get the drawings, I'm like, they're not licensed. It's just a dressman, and they don't, they don't correct them. And that's actually illegal to use the term.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:24.103)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:32.296)

That was a drafter. No, they don't have a seal. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:41.492)

fascinating. If you don't have a stamp you shouldn't be doing it.

Kelly Fridline (11:42.322)

architect if you're not licensed. Right. But again, that's state dependent.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:50.128)

It is state dependent. Well, and I think too, this whole idea of understanding where your liability is, reducing your liability, starting out of the gate with a good contract, also understanding drawings. It's amazing to me how many...

Kelly Fridline (12:04.095)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:06.788)

how many clients that we've had who don't understand. And a lot of what our job is, I feel like, is education. Our job, as you said, we're the professionals. It's educating over and over and over every client so they understand what the process is, what the story is. We start with SDs. Once you lock in your SDs, we're going to DDs. Once you lock in your DDs, we're going to CDs. And if all of that sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo soup, we're gonna have Kelly unpack it for us. Because once you have your contract

Kelly Fridline (12:27.645)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:36.502)

your way, especially if you're working with an architect, you need to understand the process. And that once you lock in each of these three key points, if you want to go back and revisit something, there's going to be a change order to that job. And someone's going to incur a cost on that, and that's going to be your client. And they're going to need an explanation as to why they're incurring that cost, which is so important. So let's start with the first one, SDs. What are SDs? We've signed a contract. We're well underway on, well, we have a Pinterest

Let's say we have some rough ideas of what we're going for. What are SDs?

Kelly Fridline (13:11.918)

Well, that's what to me, you're using a different term than what I normally use. And the first step is schematics. So your schematic design is before any estimations happening. So you can always say, all right, well, the average cost per square foot within what you are looking for is, let's say for commercial, 350 to $500 a square foot, right? And that's something that you can keep in their mind.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:15.452)

Feel free to change it. Yep, schematic design. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:37.172)

Sure, and that's very common right now.

Kelly Fridline (13:41.194)

because most of the time clients have a very good understanding of everything they want with little understanding of what they can actually afford. So my...

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:44.17)

Excuse me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:53.976)

Yeah, we have a term. I always say we can build you the Taj, but do you have the budget for the Taj?

Kelly Fridline (13:59.434)

Right, I remember, so I was always told when I worked at Finney in Saratoga, one of the things that one of my mentors there taught me is, it's not the three C's, I'm pretty sure that's like carrots and buying diamonds, but it's the sounds like C's, right? It's you have quality, cost or quantity, right? You can usually have two, but unless you are like a billionaire, you generally can't have three.

So that's a really good conversation from the very, very start. So before you even draft your contract, have that conversation. What is more important to you? To have quality and hit your budget or to have quantity so you can have a huge house, but you may, but based off of your budget, you may lose that quality, right? You may skip corners.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:44.307)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:49.352)

You're going to have a very different finish schedule than what you might be thinking you're going to get.

Kelly Fridline (14:53.958)

Exactly. It's not even just finished schedule. It's like the craftsmanship of the house overall, right? You know, there's a big difference building a frame using two by sixes versus two by fours. And if you're in an area that gets a lot of crosswind, you better assume that your house, you're going to feel like you are the little pig with straw. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:58.585)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:07.708)

Huge.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:17.61)

That's a great way to put it. It's funny you don't think about a 2x4 being that different from a 2x6 after living in Oklahoma. Huge difference. You want yourself some 2x6s when it's tornado season. I'm just saying.

Kelly Fridline (15:25.486)

It's huge.

Kelly Fridline (15:30.378)

And that's the ironic thing too, is in like, I've lived in Oklahoma too. I mean, they'll put brick veneer on everything, but you can still feel the wind hitting, basically hitting your drywall. You can hear it. And then like all the windows, I remember being in Texas being blown away because all the windows would be vinyl. It's just, again, it's a different understanding of what quality is and what.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:46.403)

Totally.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:59.06)

Sure.

Kelly Fridline (15:59.266)

local expectations are. And that is something that I think is really important for designers to know too, because at the same time, when we built our house in Texas, when my husband was in the army, we built, I mean, it was a relative cookie cutter style house. It was a semi mass produce. And yet the same time, they let us customize things. I also went in and they tried telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. And I was like, well, considering my background,

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:16.532)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:22.705)

Nice.

Kelly Fridline (16:27.746)

These are the things that you can do. I remember saying I wanted French doors, and they're like, well, you can't do that. And I said, well, you already have a header in for a fixed piece of glass at a 6'8". So yes, you can. Actually, I want a transom, so move that header up. You already have the structure built for it. So there were just some things that they couldn't pass. Yeah, yeah, well, I remember the foreman doing our final, our walkthrough. My husband, he's an artillery officer. He's not his...

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:45.556)

At which point their jaw's on the floor. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Fridline (16:57.57)

Forte is not construction, right? It is not a building. And so he's out there, like, we've got these huge army level, like, moving trucks, moving our stuff in, and he's, like, checking everything off. And this foreman, who is, like, the epitome of a cattleman, shows up, and his wife is the one I had been working with, and she hadn't shown up yet. And he starts walking me through and explaining things, like, this is how you turn the faucet on. This is, like,

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:59.528)

Sure.

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (17:27.158)

This is what, yeah, it was, I mean, down to him asking, we had just gotten married, why we didn't have kids yet. Like just my jaw dropped. Well, when his wife showed up and overheard some of the things he was saying to me, she ran right over and said, uh-uh-uh, you don't talk to her like that. She knows what she's talking about. And it was just kind of like, okay, thank you. Yeah, I was 29 years old. I did.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:27.524)

Oh, how insulting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:44.689)

Hahahaha

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:48.532)

Thank you. Sisters got my back. Yeah, absolutely. We need more of that.

Kelly Fridline (17:53.966)

probably did not look like the typical person who would know what they were talking about. But it was just funny. And I think it's really important that designers do know those things. And if you don't know them, humility is still key, right? Because I went from working in an architecture firm where you still do like the first few years that you're working in most formal firms, I think, whether it's interior design or architecture, depending upon the size.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:57.372)

Sure, right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:03.316)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:08.229)

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

Kelly Fridline (18:24.042)

you're not necessarily in field as much as the senior designers are, right? So, um, I wasn't necessarily, I was doing all these design details, but I had never really sat down and saw the actual process of, Hey, this is how they frame out a shower. This is how they float it. This is how they insert the drain. This is all these sorts of things. Um, that as they were building our cookie cutter house, I was showing up and I

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:28.349)

Right? Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:45.713)

Yep.

Kelly Fridline (18:53.55)

asking the tile guys, hey, why are you doing it this way? Why are you laying the tile out so that it is running perpendicular to the doors? Right? Like the all of these and they sat down and they explained, well, you know, you want to do that because if we were to run it horizontal with the doors, then as the sun hits it, then you're going to see all of the little variations and how that's

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:58.173)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:02.292)

Hmm. Right, right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:18.148)

the grout lines.

Kelly Fridline (19:24.002)

being humble and asking them to, they're going to be far more open to assisting you too. Because they'd like to see... Right, most of them... Right, if they take pride in it and truly take pride in it, they see themselves as craftsmen too. And I think this is a good segue into when you're doing your documentation, at what level do you need to be?

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:26.083)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:33.524)

Absolutely. It shows respect for their trade and what they're doing and what they bring to the table. Yeah.

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:45.085)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:51.924)

Hmm.

Kelly Fridline (19:53.014)

designing your drawings, right? I've had designers that will do their tile details in their shower down to like exactly how they want each piece of tile to be laid. It's not a, hey we want to make sure that this is lined up so that it's, yeah, it's the tile is center with the shower faucet, right? It's

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:11.412)

That sounds cumbersome. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (20:19.766)

We've got 12 by 24s and we want them exactly like this, cut it this size, all these sorts of things. And if I have a designer asking me for that, I generally push back a bit on it because...

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:31.7)

Absolutely, because you're totally tying the hands of the person who does this every day and might have a much better idea for functionality where you can still get the form you want as the designer. But you get the functionality that the client at the end of the day is going to thank you. Maybe not thank you for it, but they'll be grateful for three years down the road when they're standing in that shower still.

Kelly Fridline (20:37.994)

Exactly.

Kelly Fridline (20:50.634)

Right, and I mean there are artists, you do hear about these absolutely horrific instances and that's usually when you have a designer that's doing that level of detail, it's because they have had a contractor who's had a sub that has half-assed what they're doing, right? But at the same time, you are also taking that artistry away from them. So I think it's really important to...

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:56.029)

for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:04.904)

Mm, 100%.

Kelly Fridline (21:17.178)

not only vet your contractor but ask them who their subs are if you are able to do that right you know if you at the same time though from a liability standpoint consider the fact that when your clients are going through the bidding process you're just you should look at it as I'm assisting unless you are becoming the general contractor you are assisting them with understanding which

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:23.673)

Great point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:40.474)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (21:44.642)

bid they are selecting and as to where that process comes in, but you really should not be looking at it as I'm advising you to hire so-and-so. Because if you're at... Right! If you advise them and they hire so-and-so and shit hits the fan, again, they can turn around and say, well, you told me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:55.361)

No, you don't want that liability. Then it's on you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:06.928)

Yeah, that's now your fan and you get to clean it up. That's not a position you want to be in.

Kelly Fridline (22:10.127)

Right.

Right, and that's part of that story, right? If we keep referring back, right? So when it comes to the processes, you have your initial phone call, then you have, hopefully you're going on site or you're meeting with the other team, whether you are being brought on before, after the architect has been hired or draftsman has been hired. Sometimes interior designers are hired during the construction process, right? So you're showing up and maybe the walls are already in place.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:15.676)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:28.34)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:38.864)

Yep. That's like the worst to walk into. I hate that part. I mean, we put that in so much of our client communication. Do you have a project coming up? Let us know about it. I mean, it's a subliminal way of saying, don't call us when we're already into construction documents and you want us to save this and the architect. No offense. They've just put in whatever finishes make sense to them. And now you're like, I don't like them, or I saw that and I didn't like it. It's really hard to come in on a job at that point.

Kelly Fridline (22:42.558)

it is.

Kelly Fridline (23:08.93)

Well, it's not even like, I think the way from my experience, unless an architect has been hired specifically to do the full interior set, and hopefully if that's the case, your client has hired an architect who generally has in-house interior design, or they're very interiors heavy. So like the firm I worked for in Saratoga, they were very interiors heavy. They loved millwork. They, you know, that was just...

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:23.208)

design for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:29.32)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:36.328)

Hmm. They're a jam.

Kelly Fridline (23:37.65)

I mean, I worked on a project, they were doing custom millwork profiles. You know, like that's the level of detail, but they also had an interior designer that would assist with like the overall selections and all of that. So those were taken into account. That being said, they still didn't design down to the dimensional increments of details

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:45.448)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:49.435)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (24:07.726)

millwork requires. Most of the time if you are working with a draftsman or a very well skilled architect, they're thinking structurally, right? They're thinking of the shape of the house and they're not thinking in the sense of like this is the size of the beam. That is something that most architects are going to outsource.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:18.888)

Hmm, totally load-burying. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (24:34.41)

and then they're gonna review the aesthetics and how that beam is going to impact the design, right? But they're thinking that overall picture. My brain works very different and I think that's why I've worked, I work so well with interior designers and then I can also speak to architects in that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:39.772)

Hmm... hmm... Mm-hmm...

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:48.146)

Right.

Kelly Fridline (25:01.326)

I've always, I kind of say instead of starting from the big picture and working my way in, which is how architecture works, I'm kind of like a nuclear bomb in that I blow out and then come in. Like, I start from the smallest and then explode from there. Whenever I design, and I know, Katie, you've seen when we've worked together, I'm thinking of that little detail as I'm doing it. I'm saying we're not going to have that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:07.492)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:18.632)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:24.069)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:27.42)

Which is great.

Kelly Fridline (25:29.262)

clearance to be able to do this if we don't take that into account. And I think that is key for interior designers to know where the mindset is from the other design team. So, and then how, like you said, from a selection standpoint, how that impacts it. Right. So architects generally don't, other than

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:34.495)

Hmm

Kelly Fridline (25:56.91)

drywall or if they are doing millwork profiles, which obviously can impact interior selections if you have a different mindset, right? They're selecting, they're making exterior selections is more often what is happening. Maybe they're doing some ceilings or basic trim work or something like that. Again, it depends on their scope if they're doing construction administration or construction management, whatever their firm likes to take on, right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:03.432)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:06.772)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:13.689)

Very true.

Kelly Fridline (26:26.854)

Um, and because of that, if those details have not been spec'd out before that project has gone to bid and they haven't had that conversation with the client, right, they basically go to schematic, the designer, right, the architect or the clients are like, great, we love that house.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:40.9)

Yep, I know where you're headed and I'm here for it. Yep.

Kelly Fridline (26:48.406)

Yeah, we'll sign off on it. We're good. Go to DD. Okay, we're at DD. Let's go send it to bid, right? Let's get a rough bid estimate.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:50.695)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:56.068)

Yeah. Yep.

Kelly Fridline (26:58.782)

A contractor, the goal of a contractor is to get the job. And if you don't have your selections specified, they're gonna fill those blanks in and provide you an allowance. So with that in mind, unless you've turned around or the architect has said, hey, these clients are bougie. Like we want top tier selections based off of that. Then they're gonna turn around and be like, all right, to get this, I'm gonna set an allowance and we're gonna spec out level one.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:18.161)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (27:28.258)

granite or you know and then they can fix that and if you don't have a designer assisting with that bidding process who's educated in pricing and educated in the overall construction process then yeah your clients gonna turn around and they're gonna say oh great we have a $10,000 allowance for all of our countertops not realizing that they're five-bedroom four bath house yeah

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:30.429)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:42.119)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:54.74)

You're getting a powder bath. Thank you very much. Yeah. Your powder bath will look amazing and you're going to be in laminate for everything else. Let me introduce you to your P. Lam sample fan deck. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (27:57.738)

Like, all right, well, you're about to.

Kelly Fridline (28:03.218)

Exactly. Right. And that's

Exactly, but in their mind they picked the better price, right? But they're turning around. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:13.896)

For sure they did, but now, yeah. Now we're in a pickle. We're either gonna end up with a change order with a massive amount of overage from the initial budget because to your point, the GC got the job. He plugged in the number. It was $2 square foot tile and one of the big box retailers called and you can go down there and pick out some tile. It might not be the same dye lot. It could be ceramic instead of porcelain. Who knows what you're gonna get? But yeah, but they're looking at you.

Kelly Fridline (28:24.621)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (28:38.594)

Right, and that's where humility comes into, as you are working with contractors, whether you picked them out or your client picks them out, humility is key. Go on site, talk to them, ask them, hey, you know, I understand that my client wanted a Chevron tile floor. What is the difference between that and just doing

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:50.832)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (29:08.066)

stacked pattern, right? Staggered, something along those lines. If you talk to a contractor who really wants to work with you and or really wants to educate you, they're gonna be honest and they're gonna help you. They're gonna teach you, okay, first of all you're gonna have to order at least 20% more tile because the chevron pattern has a higher waste. You're also going to be charged more for labor because it takes longer.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:08.636)

12 by 24. Yep. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:31.261)

For sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:35.26)

All the cuts, yep, tons of cuts.

Kelly Fridline (29:36.426)

All the cuts, yep, the layout, all those sorts of things all come into play, that the more you talk to the team, the better off you're going to be. The other thing I'm going to say that I try to make it very clear to any designer, anybody who's in my Facebook group, anyone who's like, I wanna learn Chief Architect, because they're going to tell me the square footage I need to order from Tile. I'm like, oh, hell no. Keep in mind that no matter...

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:41.958)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:04.128)

I so agree. That's not only a no, but a hell no. Uh-uh.

Kelly Fridline (30:06.954)

Yeah, they're no matter what software you use. Construction documentation and drawing is an abstract form of the final.

finished product, right? And that's the same thing with renderings. Renderings are still an abstract form. Anybody who has been in the field, who has had a project built, they're going to know that they've had to have a backsplash floated because the studs are irregular, right? So your wall is not actually perfectly straight. And those are the instances that you do not ever, you should, as a designer,

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:22.28)

Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:31.405)

So true. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:42.241)

No. The f-

Kelly Fridline (30:51.434)

Never, ever, unless you're like doing basic estimates, do not provide square footage for materials. You need to make sure that your GC has their subs showing up. That includes wallpaper people. Have their subs show up. If they have a wallpaper installer, have them come. They have to give a bid anyways. Have them come and then say, okay, based off of this, and they should have your spec book if those are already selected.

they should be able to look it up and say, okay, based off of the repeat of this, the type of the wallpaper, the type of the finish on the wall, because if you are in the South or in many places in the West, that means that you have a drag finish or an orange peel finish. So that is an additional, yeah. But those are all instances that are going to impact the process of the installment. And...

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:37.201)

Oh, orange peel.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:43.09)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (31:45.742)

how much wallpaper you have. Because I think one of the biggest learning experiences most designers have, especially if they're the ones who end up doing the final ordering of the product, is that the first time this ever happens, you're gonna very quickly say, all right, and the GC can tell me the numbers. It's when you order the wrong number of boxes of tile and you are short by like three pieces.

but that whole new box of tile plus having it overnighted is gonna be an additional $600. You very quickly are like, and I'm not going to do this, someone else is gonna give me the number.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:20.624)

Right, right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:26.964)

Absolutely, and what we also need to take into account that we don't always think about is every installer is gonna install slightly differently and Pattern determines so much pattern of tile pattern of wallpaper pattern of all of that And so do you need a 5% overage? Do you need a 20% overage? Do you need stock for stock storage for all of that flooring that they're gonna want to come back and rip out the squares on? Once four people spill their coffee on it like in addition to the cuts. There's all of this There's a lot more to it than meets the eye

Kelly Fridline (32:32.918)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:56.918)

the moral of the story. So lean on those people, be a part of that story with them and don't be afraid to engage them on it, especially when you approach it from a place of humility, as you said, which is so important.

Kelly Fridline (33:08.154)

It is so important because there's too many times, especially as a woman, you're showing up and hopefully you're showing up on site looking like a professional that understands that there's nails. Ha ha ha.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:10.856)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:14.439)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:19.168)

Oh, let's talk about this, Kelly. Yes, this is my biggest thing. Do not show up in your cute ballet slippers or as you like to say, your stilettos. No, no, no. Just absolutely abort the mission. You have to show up credible to your industry, which for me at a minimum means steel-toed boots, a safety hat, you gotta be in a hard hat and a safety vest for me. What are your must haves?

Kelly Fridline (33:41.998)

Right, you can look, you can still, for me it's probably pretty similar. It depends on the process of the construction and where it is. I can honestly say I...

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:48.282)

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:52.38)

Sure, sure. But if you're in the throes of it and they're throwing up drywall, you better be there in full gear. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (34:00.03)

Right. But at the same time, I remember when I... I remember showing up and I went home and told my dad about what happened. One of the first times I ever showed up on site, I was probably 26 years old. Definitely looked like a 26 year old. And I remember one of the senior female designers or I remember telling her, she would say, make sure that you're wearing jeans, don't wear anything flashy.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:11.542)

Aww.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:16.178)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (34:29.898)

you know, all these sorts of things. And I remember going home and telling my dad that first of all, and he was like, no, there's nothing more imitating than a beautiful professional woman who can stand strong and be able to hold her own without having to degrade their appearances. Right. And yet at the same time, so I made sure to wear those steel toe boots, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't have like loose jeans on. I, you know, I, it was still very obvious that I was working in a professional firm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:45.66)

Yep. Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:58.182)

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Kelly Fridline (34:59.51)

And but no joke within 15 minutes of being there and they were framing up the whatchamacallit the frames for I'm drawing a blank for the foundation right to pour the foundation in um out of the four subs that were on there building those frames within 15 minutes all four had their shirts off um so it was like

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:13.04)

Yep, yep, yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:25.488)

They're like, she's good with it, so we are too. We're rolling.

Kelly Fridline (35:28.974)

Right, it was the sort of thing where I'm like, I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen normally. But it was also, and that same contractor was like, the minute he found out a woman was going to be on site, he ordered me my own port-a-potty. And I was like, first of all, I'm not going to be on that much. You don't need to order me my own. Yes. But at the same time, I also said, I don't want to be treated special. I don't want to have it where, at least me personally, I didn't want it

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:46.196)

But thank you from the bottom of my heart. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:53.938)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:58.226)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (35:59.302)

I showed up on site and men all of a sudden start talking differently, started acting differently, you know, and then I did get an experience of what it actually is like on a construction site when they are like being very frank and it was like, all right, well this is a whole other planet. Right, but I also didn't show up expecting those novelties, right? Like I don't want to be treated differently in that way either.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:05.532)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:14.561)

Maybe I'm okay with the tone down version incrementally. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:22.184)

Sure, for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:26.653)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (36:28.17)

And I think there's some designers who will show up with that like, hey, I'm a woman and I'm gonna show you that I am the boss and I designed this and you better fricking listen to me. And that's...

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:29.628)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:37.908)

Hmm. How to lose your audience in 0.3 seconds and make sure nobody ever reaches out to you to ask any questions about your design and they're just going to build it however they want. Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (36:50.01)

Exactly. I think it's key to remember that while you may have that experience and you may have that design mindset, you're also in and you're also joining within that construction side of things a part of the industry, right? But that part of the story is still to this day very good old boys

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:06.888)

You're a part of the story again. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:15.837)

Yes.

Kelly Fridline (37:19.43)

sometimes you have to play along.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:22.032)

You totally do. You absolutely do. And by the same token, I love one of the morals of your story and I'm 100% there for it. Do not be the woman that brings donuts to the construction site. Do not.

Kelly Fridline (37:23.448)

though.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:35.464)

Do not. Don't give them a reason to think less of you or that you are the little lady reporting in with a cute design that they're going to execute. Yeah, and I think this is really valid, because it can go one of two ways. Either I am the designer and you shall build according to, and there is no conversation to be had here. Or it's, hey, I'm here. I brought some donuts. What are we going to do today? How can I help? And it's like, no, you're not either one of those. You're showing up as another industry professional pulling up

Kelly Fridline (37:43.907)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (38:02.667)

Thank you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:05.638)

equal chair on four legs at the table to have the conversation about how we're going to build the structure for both form and for function. And that I think is a delicate balance to find. I think it's a challenge because you're right it is a strongly male-dominated industry and I think there's women who try to use their femininity and come from a place of weakness and then there's the domineering side. And finding the balance in between is so hard I think after 20

Kelly Fridline (38:09.806)

rates.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:35.398)

but it's the sweet spot where you can have the jokes and not be offended by the language or any of that. In fact, half the time we all use it and roll with it and not be subservient at the same time.

Kelly Fridline (38:37.314)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (38:47.158)

Right, the way I see it, I use this as whether it's the design process or construction. There's many times I call it my big fat Greek wedding effect. Anyone who's seen that movie, there's a particular scene of where the mother, the aunt, and the main character are sitting at their family diner with her dad. And they want to be able to convince him to let her go to IT school.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:00.038)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (39:14.486)

And they're like, well, he's not going to listen if we tell him. It has to be his idea. So it's that you, there's that level of patience and understanding that sometimes, and this was a key thing I was taught too, sometimes you don't have to win every argument. Sometimes you have to, right. You have to put that bug in their ear. See how it goes. There have been.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:25.814)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:36.768)

or get credit for the solution.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:43.666)

Yep.

Kelly Fridline (39:43.91)

more times that I have had my designs approved because I let them marinate them with them for a while and all of a sudden it'll be hey what are your thoughts about doing this? I'm like that is such a great idea! Let me let's do that you know and

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:51.656)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:01.076)

Absolutely! Who thought of that?

Kelly Fridline (40:04.39)

Exactly, but whether that is your client, whether that's anyone else on your design team, whether that is the contractor, those are the sorts of things where sometimes you just need to just go along and hope that you just put the bug in their ear and it sticks.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:10.267)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:14.633)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:26.664)

Put the bug in the air, take the step back, and watch where it goes. That's hard to do sometimes. That's really hard to do. It comes back to the humility we're talking about. And also, I think as I get older, just the patience element. I'm just saying, okay, Rome was not built in a day, as my mother likes to remind me. And just saying, okay, this just needs, as you say, marination time. It just needs a hot minute, and I bet we'll get there. But they just need to try it a few other ways.

Kelly Fridline (40:30.538)

Right. Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (40:51.747)

Mm-hmm. I think the other thing too is to remember when you're in construction and when you are showing up on site as the designer. There's a reason why most, and if you don't put this on your drawings, please make sure to start adding this to your drawing sets. And it is a disclaimer that says, it is the contractor is in charge of all means and methods of construction.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:11.088)

Absolutely.

Kelly Fridline (41:18.262)

That means that if you are showing up on site, you are only pointing out aesthetic, the aesthetic things. You are not telling them how to fix it. The minute you start telling them, that is your liability.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:18.737)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:30.544)

No, because that's then on you. Yep. Yep, yep. This is such a good conversation. I love that we're ending right where we started. It's a liability thing. Knowing what you're doing, where to go, and equally where not to go. And approaching it with humility and looking at this as a partnership where you do get that equal seat at the table is critical. Kelly, such a good conversation. Let's do the lightning round. I love the lightning round. Are you ready?

Kelly Fridline (41:54.158)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (41:58.892)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:59.822)

your favorite book that has changed your life, either personally or professionally.

Kelly Fridline (42:04.65)

Oh, that's rough. And I know that I sent this. And when I think about it, I ironically haven't finished this book, but it's probably the fountainhead. In that as far as I have gotten, it has changed my perception of the design industry and how the process works and how to act as a professional.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:28.516)

I absolutely love it. 100% there for that. Going back, you referenced a couple of times stories of in your 20s that where you were, what would you tell your 20 year old self now if you could have a conversation with her?

Kelly Fridline (42:39.694)

probably to breathe that you don't have to follow the linear path that everyone expects from you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:42.771)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:50.868)

That's a great, great one. And your best time hack, you are a mama too. You're an incredible chief architect instructor. In fact, we're gonna put a link in the podcast notes where you can figure out how to go to Kelly to learn more about the construction story, more about drafting, creating and using chief architect. She's fabulous at it. We've used her at our firm and it's been a huge blessing. What would you say is your greatest time management hack for keeping all the wheels on the bus?

Kelly Fridline (43:13.294)

Hmm.

Kelly Fridline (43:20.398)

That's kind of funny, I think about that and Jackie would be like, wait, what? Um, uh, for me is having templates and processes built from the very, very start and that's really hard from a designer standpoint, um, sometimes there's most of the time there's investment in that, but knowing how those templates and things are built.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:23.833)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:34.714)

Yeah.

Kelly Fridline (43:46.642)

are as just, if not more important, than hiring somebody to build them for you. Because I've run across so many designers that are like, well, I paid someone to build this template, but there's no understanding as to how that's helping them and it's not helped their process. So for me, it's having templates and processes in place that I eventually can just cut my time in half by having those.

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:03.972)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:16.848)

Yep. My favorite part about processes, if you do not have them in your firm and you need them, you do need them if you don't have them. Let's just put a period at the end of that. They work for you, and they work when you are not working, because there is a process for that. And it's going, the baton is getting handed off to the next person, and the next person, and it keeps rolling through the cycle. Such good advice. Thank you, Kelly, so much for this conversation. We're so glad to have you on the show. This was great. Thank you.

Kelly Fridline (44:24.738)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Fridline (44:30.423)

Right.

Kelly Fridline (44:41.666)

Thanks for having me. Okay, bye.