Our world is rapidly evolving. We’ve got AI and a whole host of other innovations coming on board and shaking things up. If we're not evolving in our business, we will be left behind. Instead of being fearful of the uncertainty that lies ahead in 2024 and beyond, what if we could hear predictions from someone who studies the future and create a game plan?

As a professional futurist, Rebecca Ryan is no stranger to predictions. I’m so excited she’s joining me for this conversation where we’re going deep on questions like: What will design in public spaces look like in the future? What do design firms need to know moving into 2024? And what is this futurism-meets-design project she’s been working on with Libby Castro? This episode is a must-listen for all entrepreneurs, small business owners, design professionals—and humans.

In this episode, we cover:

• What a professional futurist is

• What kind of impact a futurist can have on a community and society

• Questions to ask yourself to determine what kind of impact you want to have as a designer

• How to avoid burnout as a designer

• Why it’s important to think about what you’re going to stop doing in 2024

• Rebecca’s project with Libby Castro (futurism meets design)

• Futurist projections of design in public spaces

• How we can design spaces that keep us connected & allow for the sense of space we all need

• How to keep internal stakeholders aligned within design firms to prevent fracturing

• How to design places that promote harmony & continuity despite schismogenesis

• What design firms need to know moving into 2024

• Why and how you should be thinking like your competitors

• How to move past the fear of sharing our proprietary information

As a design professional, entrepreneur, or small business owner—which futurist prediction shocked you the most? Find Rebecca and I on Instagram and share it with us!

More about Rebecca Ryan, APF

Rebecca Ryan is hell bent on making the world better for future generations. Her work as a futurist and economist - to build more equitable, engaging, and sustainable communities - has touched one in 15 Americans. She is the founder of NEXT Generation Consulting based in Madison, WI. Her favorite coffee mug says, "Well behaved women rarely make history."

Links and Mentioned Resources

10 Trends for the next ten years

The Work Better Project

NeoCon 2023 Review

Interview with Treger Strasberg of Humble Design

The Little Red Ball

The Zen Leader

Connect with Rebecca Ryan

Instagram

Threads

LinkedIn

Instagram (NextGenerationConsulting)

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

Business Coaching for Interior Designers

Facebook

Instagram

Subscribe to Colorful Conversations with Katie Podcast

YouTube

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:01.752)

Hey Rebecca, welcome to the show.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (00:04.158)

Hey, Katie, great to be here. Thanks for doing this.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:07.227)

Oh, I'm so excited to have you. And everyone hears the term futurist, I feel like, and expects you to whip out a crystal ball and tell us what the future holds. Let's talk about, let's just start right out of the gate. What isn't a futurist? I assume you don't have a crystal ball.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (00:23.754)

Let me just look under my seat here. Nope, I am not, I did not bring a crystal ball with me today. I don't wear like a big silk head wrap. I don't have large hoop earrings and I don't read palms. I think the best way for people to, I think the best way to sort of position this is we all know what historians are. You know, they study the past and journalists, their profession is committed to reporting on what's happening right now.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:25.767)

Hehehehe

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:33.331)

Ha ha!

Darn it!

Rebecca Ryan, APF (00:52.686)

And as a professional futurist, what I do is I study trends. I study the things that seem to be indicating where we're going and try to help clients understand what the future may be and ideally bend the future in the direction that they want it to go.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:58.545)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:13.815)

I love this, and so you get to touch a variety of different spheres.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (01:19.498)

Yes, I mean, I work primarily in the public sector or the public adjacent sector. So like, I mean, you think about this, I'm in Asheville, near Asheville, North Carolina right now. And a few years ago when we were working with them, they finally got approved like a new highway. You know, that is something that is gonna have long-term impact. So they really have to think through 2040, 2050, like how many people are gonna live here?

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:36.922)

Mm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (01:45.878)

How big does this highway need to be? How do we need to think about where it goes because of how it's gonna impact housing and the economy and so forth? So there are a lot of considerations to make when you're doing big, long range infrastructure projects like that. So I love the public sector and, you know, I don't know, like a lot of your listeners are entrepreneurs and...

One choice I had to make earlier in my career is, you know, do I want to build a company or do I want to make an impact? And you know, I chose not to build a big company. I wanted to kind of try to help the most people as possible and I thought, okay, the public sector is a place I can do that. I can work with one city and maybe impact, you know, hundreds of thousands of people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:24.946)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:35.439)

Which is really something to think about because your work has touched one in 15 people in the US. Is that right?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (02:43.618)

That's right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:48.615)

That's amazing to think about the impact that has had. And such a good reminder, whatever type of business you're building, it's not about the size, it's about the effectiveness. I think that often gets missed in business. You can have a huge corporation that functions like a dinosaur is completely inefficient and effective. And here you are as a powerhouse, running through all these things and making things happen.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (03:13.43)

Yeah, and you know for me, you know, depending on where you are in your career, so I've been at this for 25 years and I've had several inflection points. My business is not the same today as it was when I first started out, so just thinking about these folks who are considering starting their own business or who have started their own business, it's a valuable thing to think about what energizes you. And I am terrible at managing people.

but I love doing client work. So as a designer, do you love doing design work? Do you love working with clients? Do you feel better about doing things operationally? Do all of those things inspire and excite you? And you'll burn out in a business if your energy, for the things that give you energy are things you don't get to do very often. And for me, I had to return back to client work and I had to shrink our staff.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:12.587)

I so admire you for having the courage to do that. That's one thing we talk about in business in general is that there's such a push to scale. Scale, scale, scale. The bigger the better, the bigger the better. And not necessarily, like you said, if you're not happy at the end of the day, if it's not bringing you joy, what are you doing it for?

Like take the time to toggle back and find what we, I like to call the sweet spot, but find that sweet spot. Where do you feel energized leaving work every day instead of sitting back and going, oh my gosh, is it only Tuesday?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (04:44.454)

Yeah, it's so true. And the truth of the matter is, too, you know, the things that you love may not be the things that make money. I mean, there is like, you know, a Venn diagram where the wallet and the sense of purpose, you know, and the impact you can make kind of all overlap. And it's, I think it's ridiculous to think that as an entrepreneur, you're going to have that like, first cracker out of the box. Like, you're just going to have to try some stuff and see how it works. And the things that...

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:54.504)

Mmm, that's powerful.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (05:12.386)

you know, I'm going to be doing in the next year to five years are going to be different than the things I was doing when I started my business. So to be flexible and continue to innovate, I think is, it's, it's just so important.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:26.211)

Well, in taking that one step further, it should be different. Our world is rapidly evolving. You look at the global political scene, geopolitical scene, right? You look at AI coming on board. You look at all these different variables. If we're not evolving in our business, we are going to be left behind because it's just not smart business. We should be evolving, choosing what we embrace, how we embrace it. One thing I've challenged my team with is I don't want to just hear what you want to do in 2024.

I want to hear what you think we should stop doing in 2024. What's going to free up the margin? What are we going to take off the plate that is either old technology, bad habits, no longer relevant? What are we going to pull off so that we can embrace these new things as they come aboard and be on the cusp of that for our clients? And I admire you for having the courage to do that. That is not small.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (06:14.31)

That's... well... and that is so smart, Katie, to ask what we're gonna stop doing because too many cities, companies, nonprofits, they add more and more to what they do and it's not useful. It's like a mentor of mine told me once, she's like, imagine you had all the slices of bread in the world. She's like, those are all your opportunities. And she said, imagine you have one jar of peanut

Do you wanna make hundreds of terrible tasting peanut butter sandwiches, or do you wanna make a few really good peanut butter sandwiches? And I think about that all the time. I wanna make good peanut butter sandwiches.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:45.782)

Uh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:53.374)

Ah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:57.883)

I'd rather have three super fabulous ultra gooey dough finger licking sandwiches than sitting there with a pile that just has it stuck to the roof of your mouth. I feel every part of that. You know, you're very humble, but you have dabbled in the world of design in a very significant way in the project that you did with Libby Castro. I want our audience to know that you're not just coming in as a futurist, but you're coming in with a future as a futurist who also understands design. Tell us about the project you did with Libby.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (07:27.282)

Yeah, so just to bubble up and make the connection for all of the entrepreneurs and like the people who are small business owners like me, during COVID, one of the things that I realized is I really love partnering with people outside my business. So I have a small team and we partner all the time, but I love partnering with people who aren't in my business. They freshen my thinking. I love the new ways of thinking that they bring to me.

And Libby Castro, much like you, award-winning interior designer, very successful. She and I were talking about how work had been broken before COVID, but this COVID was like an X-ray that showed all the broken bones. And how could my work as a futurist and her insight as a designer come together to help people work better? So we started this thing. It's.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:12.067)

Mm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (08:20.694)

very simple. It's as simple as a peanut butter sandwich. It's called the Work Better Project. And we just put together our perspectives and we created a series of three white papers. The first one was kind of our kind of our mission statement, our manifesto, our will manifesto, where we said why we're partnering on this work. And yep, totally all day.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:27.067)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:39.467)

I love a woman manifesto. Yeah, I'm here for that.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (08:47.89)

So we talked about why work could be different and how it could be different. The second was really Libby's white paper and she talked about the new way how people are thinking about designing their primarily office spaces. And then the third paper I took the lead on and I talked about the new downtown, like what the future of downtown could look like because the way that we're working now is gutting some downtowns because office workers aren't all returning.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:14.706)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:18.331)

It completely is. I mean, I think that's why many mayors across the country have ordered people back to work because they need them dropping off their dry cleaning and buying their sandwich from the local deli on the corner. And I mean, look at San Francisco. It's a perfect example. I mean, there's arguably more than economics and COVID involved there, and there's political components. But it's just sad. At the end of the day, wherever you want to point the finger, it's just sad. And so how do we fix that going forward? You know, it's interesting. We talk a lot about ontological design, and that we don't just design spaces, but they design us back.

And so when you walk into that space and you feel this amazing sense of I'm inspired or I feel so calm and sedate or this is incredibly energizing, it affects our outputs in a very significant way. And just hearing you talk about that as far as work and what is broken and what has changed and where we're going, what is your projection as far as design in the public spaces overall, whether it's a town hall or whether

it's any public space for that matter where we see people working. What do you think it's going to look like in 2024? Because there's still that big push of back to work we go, hidey ho, hidey ho, hidey ho. And there's also this big push of workers saying, I want a hybrid. I want to be able to put a chicken in a crockpot, start the Roomba and roll on out. Where do you feel like it's going as a futurist?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (10:31.214)

time.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (10:38.462)

Yep. Well, yeah, I mean, I listened to your very first episode of your Colorful Conversations podcast where you and a colleague were breaking down Neocon. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not the only one I listened to. But I thought there were some really good insights. One of the things that you said was Alone Together, like emerged as like a key tagline. And that is the balance that we're trying to strike that, you know, it takes workers...

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:47.45)

Aw, thank you.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (11:07.318)

between seven and I think like 11 minutes, it might be even more, to recover from a distraction at work. And what is work, but just an endless opportunity for you to be distracted. So, you know, the ability to do deep work, and I'm thinking like for those of us who are in like sort of information business where we have to create information, analyze information, you know, whatever the case is, but distractions are very costly.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:17.039)

Wow.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (11:37.286)

for human productivity. So this idea of where can I go and get my focus time going and where is like a commons area where I can kibitz with whomever is in the commons area at the same time I am. Both are both are important. So I think that's gonna be that's gonna be one thing for sure. But for people who are listening who design at home, home is gonna continue to be a workplace for many

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:38.084)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (12:05.342)

not only adult workers but for students as well. I mean, when you think about what's possible from an education perspective now, we're seeing it with, we've been seeing it for decades with massive open online courses. But you know, there will come a time when your college student or your technical college student will be able to put their degree together from a variety of organizations with global support in a video environment. And so in...

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:15.459)

It's intense.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (12:34.006)

that case it's gonna, you know, home is gonna be school too, home is gonna be a workplace too, so alone together could also be a theme for home.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:43.591)

That's a fascinating concept. And it's crazy to me that we're sitting here in December, and we both feel like this isn't fleshed out. And that happened back in February? I mean, that's a very interesting conversation that I feel like we're still learning to get up and walk when it comes to what is this going to look like actually, that we're still here 10 months later, nine months later, figuring this out.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (12:52.446)

Yep.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (13:08.446)

It's, you're exactly right. My friend Jason Lawrence and has a metaphor that I think works great. He's a talent whisperer. He's just a brilliant thought leader on how to attract, retain talent. He did 50 cups of coffee with HR folks over the summer. And his, one of his key takeaways was, we are in the second inning of figuring out what the future of work will be. So that really puts it in perspective.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:20.167)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:32.723)

Hmm. I love that. Well, it does, because I think, as Americans, we want the quick answer. We love sound bites. We love instant dishware, anything that can be microwaved. This is not going to be a quick answer. This is going to be a slow, long play out. And I also feel like it's a really big negotiation between executives and blue collar workers as to what this space is actually going to look like as we move forward. Let me ask you. Oh, go ahead.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (14:02.09)

I was going to say, you know, it's true at work, but it should also be true for our homes too. I mean, you know, the kind of the standard cookie cutter, you know, three bed, three bath, two car garage or three car garage, whatever the standard is now. I don't know. But I remember the first house, the only house that I built, the architect asked, like one of the last questions on the sheet was like, how do you want to feel when you come home?

and what do you want to see when you come home? And what I wanted to see was, I'm a very proud and happy dog owner. I wanted to see my dogs, and I wanted my dogs to be able to see me, because if they perceived a stranger at the door, you know how they get that mohawk of hair that goes up on the back of their body? And that's not a great thing to come home to, is like your dog, like, agitated. I wanted my dog to be able to see it was me walking up, so he put glass doors on our house, you know?

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:57.531)

For sure not.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (15:01.342)

And so even from the perspective of like, what does family mean today to you? You know, what feelings do you wanna have in your own home environment? I think, you know, the great thing about COVID and it's gonna have a long tail that's gonna impact design, but the great thing about COVID is that we all assessed the value of whatever time we have left in this body. You know, we all faced the possibility of dying.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:02.41)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:27.213)

So true.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (15:30.31)

And it caused us to have this existential question of like, where do I wanna put my time? It's why we had the great resignation. It's why so many people have started new businesses. Hopefully it's why people invested so much in their homes during COVID. They were spending more time there. They wanted it to be more comfortable. That's not gonna go away in 2024 or in 2025. I think for those of us who are really on the edge of this, we can anticipate working with clients

who want home to be something that really reflects their family, their family values, and to have the feeling of sanctuary and the feeling of happiness and the feeling of connection.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:14.479)

I love the word connection. I think it has so many different meanings too, especially as we have the work from home. How do we remain connected to our family and design spaces that keep us connected to them, keep us connected to our job if we have the luxury of working from home or doing a couple days from home a week and still create that sense of space and disconnect that we all need as human beings? How do we balance?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (16:37.39)

That's right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:40.583)

that and how I feel like that's one of the big tension tensions moving into the next looking into the future. You tell me you're the futurist, but I feel like that's going to be a really big thing to tackle.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (16:49.707)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (16:53.622)

You know, the future is always a tension among competing energies, right? So between you and me, on December 5th, and I don't know when this is going to drop, but so Leah, you can just edit it this way. I'm going to take a beat and I'll restart the answer to the question. So you know, the future is always a tension. And in my top 10...

trends for the next 10 years, one of the trends is schismogenesis, which I know it's a mouthful, but schism, you know that means it's right, it's like a cleavage or it's a division, and schismogenesis is this human tendency to want to create in-groups and out-groups. This has been true for 65,000 years of human evolution. We break into groups.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:29.211)

I like it though.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:42.3)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (17:49.098)

My group is good, your group is bad. This explains sports, it explains slavery, it explains racism, like it explains politics. Exactly. And so that is very much a growing trend right now. And one of the things that makes us human is our ability to cooperate. So one of the big narrative arcs of this next decade is going to be

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:56.49)

Politics?

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:13.069)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (18:18.202)

Are we gonna be satisfied tearing ourselves more and more apart? Or will a new narrative emerge to talk about what we have in common? What can bring us together? And I think many of the people listening to this can probably sense within their own families. We're at a tipping point. We're at this point where the tribalism, the divisions feel like they may be stronger than what's bringing us together.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:30.829)

Mmm...

Rebecca Ryan, APF (18:47.382)

But it doesn't have to be that way, because we as humans also have this innate desire to cooperate with each other.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:57.111)

I love that. And I have two ways I want to go with that response. One, how do you think it runs or affects the running of a design business and firm and keeping your internal stakeholders aligned and on the same page and not have it turn into a schismatic

to create a word place. And then also, how, as designers, do we create places that promote harmony and continuity moving into the future with the new technology? So you can pick whichever one of those you want, because my brain is completely split on them because they're both so different.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (19:32.818)

Yeah, so I think, you know, as a design professional, you have the ability to influence your clients, you know, and so to the extent that you can, I think there should be those, it is a powerful, they're counting on you to do what they can't do, you know.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:44.644)

Yeah, that's a powerful reality.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (19:53.67)

I mean, you kind of mentioned it at the top of the interview. In the food world, we say people eat with their eyes first. Well, the same thing is true for sighted people when they enter a space. They have that first experience that sets a tone, and if it doesn't set a tone, that's a huge problem, because they become confused. Like, what is this space really about? So I think as a designer, you have the ability to influence the client by the kinds of questions you ask. So...

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:11.601)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (20:22.634)

You know, what I know from the last 25 years is people need two forms of connection at work. They need one, the connection to their work, right? So they wanna feel like the work that I do matters, I understand how to do my job, I have the time, space, and tools to do my job, and so that's important at work. But they also wanna be connected.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:33.447)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (20:45.898)

Again, that innate need to cooperate. They want to be connected to the people around them. So it seems like one of the most important things we can do as designers is make sure that those connection rooms really feel comfortable and seamless and integrated with technology to the extent where even if somebody is, you know, you're connecting with an office or a client in another location, that needs to feel as seamless as possible. Oh, Katie.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:09.299)

..

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:16.271)

Sorry, I'm getting over a horrible cold my kids brought over. Yeah. They're good little Petri dishes, I tell you.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (21:16.574)

Um, so that- no. Oh, I'm so sorry. Kids! Um...

Oh, they are. So I think the question about connecting, yeah. And then the other question was about connecting to technology. Was that the question?

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:25.955)

Yeah, I think that's such a good point about seamlessness. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:38.639)

are just connecting, keeping our internal stakeholders on the same page so that we don't have division within our organizations. We don't have division, just more the inner, or more the organic and the intangibles of keeping a firm together in the midst of what's becoming a very, just flat out broken up.

convoluted society. How do you keep your firm running well and keeping your stakeholders in your firm running well? And then the spaces they designed keeping, like how do we integrate it so that families run well in the spaces we designed? So those were the two, yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (22:01.513)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (22:08.822)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (22:12.878)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, another... Hmm, there are so many different directions I could go with this question. Let me just check in with myself here.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:23.172)

I know, take your time. Yeah, go for it.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (22:35.894)

So one of the gifts of COVID, the time of COVID, is I think we all started to see ourselves as whole people. And we've got to keep that alive. And I think most organizations are doing a great job of this, especially the example I would give is, I can't think of a family that I know.

that doesn't have some concerns, some mental health concerns in it, with a child or with an adult. So mental health has come into the mainstream. Now we're talking about it. And that's a wonderful thing. And it actually creates opportunities for...

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:16.819)

It's a great gift.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (23:18.73)

for staff to get more connected with each other. And so if we can be honest about like, you know, my kid's been waitlisted for six months to get into this therapist, their first appointment is Thursday afternoon and somebody will step in and say, I will cover for you. You go do that, you know, take the afternoon off, you go get that done. So that's one of the great things about work. But one of the things that I think companies, workplaces have sort of messed up on.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:33.779)

Mmm...

Rebecca Ryan, APF (23:46.482)

if I may be so bold, is kind of putting their noses into issues that are not germane to the business. So, um, you know, I just think about the number... why? Tell me why. Oh, is it?

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:49.127)

Please do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:54.959)

I'm so glad you said that. It's a pet peeve.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:01.563)

Because it is a pet peeve for me. And the reason why is because they want to stand on whatever that issue is. And what they don't realize is, yes, it's not germane to what they do. And right now, whatever you put out there, you're going to piss off 50% of the people, whatever it is. I don't care. The grass is green. I guarantee you 50% of the people will be pissed off about that. So.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (24:19.127)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:24.471)

especially when it's not germane to what you do, when it's not something you're lobbying for that's gonna require regulations or really impact your business, my question is always why? Why do you feel the need to go there? You're only alienating that hard earned and hard won client base that you wanna nurture, support, and build. So for me, there's nothing to gain, and there's...

Rebecca Ryan, APF (24:45.995)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:49.379)

infinitely more to lose. And I think the nothing to gain part people could say, well, I'm speaking into this space. I'm making my voice heard. I think as part of this schismatic society that is evolving and is already, people find the people they wanna listen to, that they go to their own echo chamber anyway. No one ever said I got converted by somebody yelling at me on a street corner, right? Oh, I had an epiphany. I went by, there was some guy holding a political sign and I thought, that's it, I've been wrong all along. Never happened. I don't know.

That's it for me. What about you?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (25:21.11)

Well, yeah, for me, it's just, I think that this is a relic of a now bygone era. I think, you know, staying out of the political conversations and focusing on why your business exists. Like in my company, we talk all the time about nines and tens. Like we just wanna give our clients nines and tens. So we have people who are on the right side of the political spectrum. We have people on the far left side of the political spectrum.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:30.843)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:40.487)

that.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (25:49.698)

but we are a combination of talents and our focus, our singular focus is our clients. And beyond that, nobody wants to hear, I mean, just because you have a microphone doesn't mean you have to use it. So just as my friend Jan would say, keep your beak in your own bowl.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:10.387)

Can I steal that, please? I absolutely love that. I love that. I think it's so true, though, keeping your beak in your own bowl and just staying in your own lane if it's not germane to what you do, if it is not germane to what you do. And arguably, too, you have a better team because you have far left, you have far right. Everybody has different perspectives. But when the goal is the same, then everybody comes out winning, most specifically the client.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (26:12.47)

for sure.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (26:23.542)

Yep.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (26:38.694)

Exactly. And that's why we exist. You know, we are not a nonprofit. We are here to be of service to clients. And that's what we honestly have in common. The other stuff is like, it's your private life. Like, live your life, you know? This is one of the great things about our country.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:57.775)

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. If you could sit down with a roomful of designers, which arguably you are in this moment, and you could speak a truth that you feel like they need to hear, which you arguably just have, but anything else that you would want to impart as we move into 2024, you're a brilliant economist.

What do you feel like the small business owner in America who's running an interior design firm, whether they're five figures, six figures, seven figures, whatever you're bringing in, what do you need to know moving into 2024 that maybe people are talking about, but maybe they're not, that needs to be on the radar?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (27:38.77)

Yeah, so I feel like design is one of those... and tell me, Katie, if I'm right about this, but I feel like design is one of those things, kind of like HR or marketing, that feels variable. Like, it's one of the first things to get cut when the economy goes south. Is that true?

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:58.659)

It is, especially because I feel like so much of design historically has been designing to the top 1% of our society. So maybe they're holding off on buying the lake house. Maybe they're holding off on buying the cabin, where you just did the main house, but you're not going to get that business in the cabin world, necessarily. And especially as we see interest rates where they are right now, you're not having people have the turnover in the residential environment that we have seen historically because I went from a 2.5 to 2.99. Now I'm going from a 2.5 to an 8.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (28:29.347)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:29.4)

that gets a little scary. So I think you're dead on. It definitely changes.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (28:34.578)

Yeah, so here's one thing. So as an economist, I track six leading indicators of the US economy, the economy is not headed to recession, we never have been. I can't tell you how many standups I did on live news last year, where they were trying to get me to say we're headed to economy. I was like, my indicators do not show this now. Inflation should soften by q2 of 2024. And that's going to help.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:47.835)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (29:03.214)

projects that just didn't pencil out at the bank, those will start to pencil out again. So you might be in a little bit of a lull right now, but this is a beautiful time for you to sort of take stock, sharpen your message, get your marketing like good to go, get whatever you're gonna do for Q1, Q2, for building value for your clients, get it get it ready now so that you're top of mind when these projects start to pencil after the summer of next year.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:27.795)

Thank you.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (29:31.862)

The other thing that I would just say, not so much just for a design audience, but I would say to any small business owner, it was a question that one of my friends who is a video designer gave me as a gift during the Great Recession. He said, if a competitor popped up hell bent on putting your business out of business and taking all of your clients.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:47.792)

Hmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (30:00.662)

Like what are the first couple things they would do? And why aren't you doing them? And so ask yourself, you know, it's so powerful. And I don't want you to give away any secrets here, Katie, but like, are there any things that come to mind for you? I know there are for me, and we've reoriented around some of these things.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:07.041)

Oh, that is so good.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:23.823)

I think it's so smart, it goes back to what you just said. The one thing that I see small businesses do whenever there's a pullback, the first thing to get cut is marketing.

It pains me. It absolutely pains me. You want to double down in marketing because everybody else is going to be falling out of the market, and you nailed it. It's top of consciousness. When you showed up over and over, top of consciousness for them repeatedly through the lull, because there's lulls, there's ups, there's tides, that's life. What happens when the money starts to flow again in Q2 to your point about, we're going to start seeing things that didn't pencil, start to pencil again?

Are you there? Have they been watching you and seeing you maintain what you're doing? I think that's so important. Also, what you said reminded me of a great book that I love. It's called The Little Red Ball. And it's by a man called Kevin Carroll. And he's a catalyst with a K. Do you follow? Do you know what I'm talking about? I love Kevin. But he talks about the lonely work. It's so good.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (31:20.306)

I am sh- nodding my head because someone else told me about this book. I'm sorry, go ahead. He talks about the lonely work?

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:28.339)

No, it's such a good book. And so it's the lonely work and it's everything that we, I don't want to say devalue in our culture, but it's not sexy. It's not pretty. Nobody sees you out here doing a podcast. They, they're not, or they see you out here doing the podcast. They don't see the hours of work that you put into preparing and finding the quiet spot to your point today where you could come and meet with us and all the things that

you did to show up here today so that when you sit down with us, you could have this conversation and be reputable. We want to just expect to show up, and it's all here, and it's great. Lonely work during recession is a gift, and we don't tend to like it or embrace it culturally, but this is the time where you're thinking about writing that white paper, like you did with Libby during COVID, right? Were you thinking, what is that next project that you haven't had the time or space for that you're like, I've really needed to do this? Maybe it's a passion project that's not even related to business.

Awesome.

Now is your chance to fill up that creative cup and get those juicy juices flowing again so that when you do sit down to create for the client, you're coming from a place of fullness, not oh my gosh, I just got through how many houses in the last year, right? I think that those types of things are extremely powerful to sit back and take inventory, whereas we tend to naturally get very fearful. It's like, oh, there's gonna be a lull. Oh no, what about this? Is this gonna happen? And we just freeze up. We have the paralysis of analysis

wait a second, this is a gift of time, energy, and resource that I can use. So when those floodgates open, I'm here and ready. Like you said, there isn't no competitor coming because I've already nailed those top three of what they would do during this lull.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (33:08.578)

That's right. I mean, the other thing that I think is counterintuitive for people in business is to outshare your competitors or, you know, other people. So so many people are like, oh, I have this proprietary process and like I will tell my clients about it like when we get the business. And it's so it might seem counterintuitive, but the more you share everything, you know.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:18.663)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:29.238)

Yes.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (33:36.098)

the more valuable you are to people. So if you have a really strong perspective about where color is gonna go, or if you have a really strong perspective on, you know, four things every family should do to create like a cozy connection space or whatever, share it, share it, share it, because that stuff builds your value.

in the mind of a prospect. It doesn't decrease the value. And you might say like, but Rebecca, that's all I have. Like that is what I have. Great. That is maybe enough to get you the call or to get you the email. And then you're going to build and you're going to grow from there because the next client, you're going to learn more and then you can share more. It's a virtuous cycle.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:24.067)

That is so wise and I feel like it's something in our industry that we have struggled with for so long. It's like, yes, this is proprietary. This is my silo. Don't come over here. I have my way of doing things. You have yours. I have my clients. You have yours. I always like to say.

There's plenty of work for everyone. Or as my dear friend Michelle loves to say, there are plenty of ugly houses. Like, there's enough work out there for everybody. Like, we can all get in here, we can all share, and it only increases the reputation of our industry. And...

Rebecca Ryan, APF (34:46.519)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:55.035)

the credibility of using a designer when we all come to the table and share our wealth of resources. A part of the reason that I started the podcast and the webcast is because there are things that need to be shared out here. And I love having people like you come and speak into this space and share them. That's so wisely put. How do you think we get over the fear of that though? Because it's been so ingrained for so long. How do we get past the fear of what if somebody else does that too?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (35:22.178)

There are paper tigers and there are real tigers. And if you're afraid to share, it's a paper tiger. And I guess my other question would be, do you love your clients more or are you more afraid of the paper tiger? I mean, I just want to love every client as best as I can, every client, every prospect, you know? And that is contagious.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:32.888)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:51.085)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (35:51.215)

is also contagious, so you need to choose where you want to come from.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:58.295)

I absolutely love that. Any last thoughts that we didn't get to address that you think are so important for our audience to know as we speak into this space, we move into a new year, we have new goals, new starts, and also just a bunch of uncertainty.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (36:13.07)

Yeah, because you know your audience is in the design profession, so I'm a futurist, right? And so what I would say is there's a difference between a fad and a trend, and there are things that are timely and things that are timeless. Like I remember when I painted my bedroom walls like blue and brown, like that was very hip and trendy in this one particular moment at this time.

And then a couple years later I was like, holy Christ, get me out of this right now. So I think the thing that you guys are always trying to do, right, is figure out what is timely and what is timeless. And when you follow sort of the zeitgeist of the moment, you know, the zeitgeist of the moment, there are times, like the Roaring Twenties was a time of

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:41.639)

Yeah, the spa palette.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:00.452)

Hmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (37:10.254)

fad and it was a time when as a designer being on that leading edge reinforced the culture and it played into the culture. And then there are times in a culture when people are scared, when they're worried, where they want timelessness. They want to, in times of uncertainty, people want to hang on to something that feels solid and secure. And so maybe with every client, maybe during certain times, there are times when

things that are timeless are more important than things that are of the moment, that are very timely. And so you just have to know what you're building for and what your client values. And as a futurist, I'm always doing that dance. There are things that are timeless. Gathering around a dinner table is timeless, right? And then there are things that are timely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:02.221)

Agreed.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (38:04.302)

you know, that makes sense for that moment. What do you think? I mean, what do you think designers need to be paying attention to for 2024 and beyond?

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:14.075)

That's a great question. I think it's really dialing into the client's wants and needs. We come back to that over and over again. Clients have lots of fleeting wants. Pinterest is a double-edged sword. It helps guide us. But sometimes you look at a Pinterest board, and you're like, oh my gosh, we're going to have to create continuity out of this and cohesion? Heaven help. I think it's really understanding your clients. But it goes right back to what we talked about at the top of the hour, in that it's really about understanding the responsibility.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (38:35.694)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:44.089)

the privilege and the ethics that come with being a designer working in someone's home space and not only giving them what they want but also what they need and walking through that journey with them. I think as we've gone to a more global environment and to your point about mental health coming into the forefront no two families are alike anymore so what you do for one is never going to work for another. That requires us as designers to pull in a much bigger well

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:14.309)

to our clients and having the courage to do that and to dig deep and to say I'm going to invest, it will give back. Like you said, you want every client to feel like they're a nine or a 10. You want to love on those clients, love on those clients because not only are they gonna love on you, they're gonna send other people who need loving on your way too. But I think the trends thing, trends are very much to be sorted out. We've seen farmhouse come, Scandinavian, there's always a revolving door.

But figuring out what you're good at and clinging to that and finding your people, both internally in your organization, externally as your clients, that is everything. I always love to say, if you're being trying to be everything to everyone, you're nothing to no one. You don't have to dance with everybody in the room. Find your person and go do what you're meant to do.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (39:39.79)

Exactly.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (39:55.63)

Yep.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (40:03.182)

This might not make it into the podcast, but I'm interested in this. Like, do you think that like, I mean, has HGTV and all of these great, like the design edit shows, has this been a huge boon for your business? Like, is this been great? Or now are people like, oh, I can just do this myself.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:07.687)

Do it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:20.687)

You know, honestly, I think it's been, and right in, if you feel differently. I actually think it's hurt our industry dramatically. I think it's cheapened. What's really hard is they'll say, oh, we did the kitchen for $20,000. What? You can't buy granite for $20,000? Like, you look at the price tags they assign, and they're just not accurate, I don't feel like. Then you have the problem too, of the client constantly getting roped into what they're seeing on HGTV.

and they want this, and they think they're gonna get it for $20,000, right? But by the time that episode airs or reruns, a lot of those things are tired. Like we don't see grays anymore. We do, I shouldn't say we don't, but they're much more strategic and soft and more pastel-y. Oh wait, that's where grays were born? That was how many eons ago? Yes, were grays the reflection of the Great Recession? Absolutely, you can see the direct correlation, but.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (40:50.734)

Yep.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (40:54.958)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (41:14.382)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:18.155)

You know, are they still all over HGTV? Do I still, you know, and that's where if the client wants it and we talk through it with them and explain like, hey, we feel this is on the way out, like, but tell me your reason why, let's work through it. Gray's always been your favorite color since you were five. Okay, great. Like we know we're buying into something more timeless there to your point.

I don't feel like HGTV has been a win. I think it's fun to watch. So many of the scenarios as designers we know are made up, the conflict that's created for the storytelling of the episode, like, oh gosh, they just found out that the fireplace is crumbling. Like, we probably knew the fireplace was crumbling, right? Just things like that. I think it's a good reminder, reality TV is reality TV. That's my feeling on it. How do you feel about it? I mean, when you watch it.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (42:05.102)

I... shoot, I don't know, I mean...

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:09.819)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (42:11.15)

I mean, the thing that it just feels unrealistic is like in one episode you just see, you know, you take the entire journey in one episode which just sets up, it's just, it's so, you know, it's so unrealistic and um, I just so believe in the power of design to just make life more enjoyable. Um, like I don't understand.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:20.231)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:35.95)

Yeah.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (42:38.094)

you know, like going into those ugly homes like your friend was saying. Like, like why would you like it always blows me away when people hire a designer when they're trying to sell their house. I was like, you could have been living in this the entire time you lived in this home. Like this is so dumb. I mean it's not dumb, it's just oh yeah, yeah I guess, yeah I guess that is one of the shows. I don't have cable tv so I don't get to watch these shows very much,

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:49.811)

Thanks for watching!

Yes. Yeah, love it or list it. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:05.875)

It's OK, I don't either.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (43:07.886)

You know, the idea of like, why not make every day a joy? And why not make every day beautiful? Like, you could have this every day, you know? Instead of just the five minutes when you're trying to get top dollar to sell. Yeah, it's like, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:22.311)

Well, and I think that's where, oh, go ahead.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (43:26.83)

Mm-mm, good.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:29.043)

I was just going to say, I think that's where our job as designers come in to educate, and it comes back to ontological design again. You can say, I'm going to live in this space. And yeah, you can just hang out in the space and, to your point, not enjoy it and decide to make it beautiful right before you sell it. How is that affecting your creativity, your outputs, your interaction with your family?

your work from home motif. How does all that get impacted? And what would have been the change in your outputs if you had let that space design you back in a productive, meaningful, creatively juicing way? What would the last 10 years have looked like? Admittedly, there's a resource component to this. There's a socioeconomic component to this. But.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (43:49.614)

Totally.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (44:04.654)

Totally.

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:11.063)

That's where I love working with organizations where it's not just that, where they're out there giving people, in fact, we'll put the link to one interview that we just did with a wonderful company. They're in five cities right now and they're giving homeless a, not just, oh, here's a bed, be glad you have a bed, but a truly fundamentally designed home. And their retention numbers are insane of how hard people fight to keep those homes because they are so proud of them.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (44:33.23)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:40.003)

And I think if we were more aware of that, humble design. Yep, that's them. And they are doing such a good job. We sat down with Trigger and we talked about her mission and how she's doing it and where it comes from. And if we started taking that approach across the spectrum, not only would it elevate people's lives, it would elevate our industry. I don't see a lose coming out of that.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (44:40.174)

Yep. Is that humble design?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (45:02.638)

That's brilliant. Okay, so that'll be your reality TV show. You're in Trigger. Humble design.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:10.456)

I would love to do that. I think turning, I mean, it kind of goes back to Ty Pennington back in the day when he did his show. But the idea of just giving people who are hardworking doing it right a chance. My gosh, we need more of that in life. That's that hope that I feel like people are still looking for, especially coming out of COVID.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (45:18.35)

Yep.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (45:25.262)

Shit.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (45:29.294)

Yeah, and design is a way that like across any income level, it feels like you can have some of that. You know, this stuff does not have to be expensive. It's just a few choices. And I agree, Ty Pennington was one of the first designers that I, who I really loved. You could feel his love. There's a person who led with love.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:42.419)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:46.66)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:54.507)

Yes. Yes, absolutely wholeheartedly agree. Rebecca, this has been a great conversation. You ready for the lightning round? I love the lightning round. I still get excited about it. Okay, favorite book personally or professionally and why?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (46:02.67)

Yes, let's go.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (46:11.342)

The Zen Leader by Ginny Whitelaw. She's my zen teacher, but she introduces 10 flips in that book that completely reorient, like the first one is from coping to transforming. And wouldn't all of us benefit from going through life not coping, but going into every situation transforming the situation. So that book is one that I actually paid to get spiral bound.

because I was opening it so much that the binding just completely cracked off.

Katie Decker-Erickson (46:45.815)

Awesome. We're going to have a link in the show now, so don't worry. You don't have to write it down. Greatest time hack. This one's always controversial. Some people think you can hack time. Some don't. I'd love to hear it from your perspective as a futurist. What do you think?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (46:58.51)

Well, as a futurist, I study time quite a bit, and the truth is that there is no such thing as outside time. I could go deep into this, but from a very practical level, from a very practical level, my favorite time hack is to set my timer, and then, like, I do this for things that I am avoiding doing. I set my timer for 10, 20, or 30 minutes, and then I go 3, 2, 1, start, and I just

Katie Decker-Erickson (47:07.283)

Mmm.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (47:26.286)

do it for whatever until the timer goes off. And usually by the time the timer goes off, I'm like, well, I'm in it now, so I stay in it and finish it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (47:35.175)

That is a great one. I love that technique. I wish I could apply that every day to like getting on my treadmill or getting on my Peloton bike. These are things that need to happen. Like let me just say in the heat of life, that's what needs to happen. All right. Talk to me about what you would have told your 20 year old self.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (47:53.678)

I would have told her, you are enough.

Katie Decker-Erickson (47:57.875)

Hmm. I absolutely love that. You know, it's so interesting. We've had a number of guests on the show now. And almost everyone we get all sorts of answers to the other two questions, but almost everyone has a some take off of that for this question. You are enough.

You are so enough, it will be okay. Stop sweating bullets about your career. Calm down. It's all some incarnation of that, of you are enough. What would you say to someone out there who's second guessing, starting their own business, or has just started it, and they don't feel like it enough right now? What would be your message to them?

Rebecca Ryan, APF (48:38.99)

So this is a little bit of a futurist perspective, but it really does work Think about the actual worst Outcome that is possible Really think about it and then think about the absolute best possible outcome that is possible And if you can manage the floor and you can imagine the ceiling You're probably going to be okay

Katie Decker-Erickson (48:57.096)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (49:07.279)

I love every part of that. Rebecca Ryan, thank you for the conversation. Thank you for the insights. Thank you for the hard fought wisdom. It was a pleasure to have you on the show.

Rebecca Ryan, APF (49:15.886)

Thank you, Katie. Keep it up.