What is the importance of branding? Whether you’re a solopreneur or part of a design firm, having a brand makes you memorable. But good branding doesn’t happen by throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks—it’s strategic and thoughtful.

And that’s exactly what my friend and branding expert, Corey Fuller, is sharing with us on this episode! We touched on everything from naming a business to finding the perfect typography. This conversation is an incredible resource for anyone looking to brand a new business or rebrand an existing one.

In this episode, we cover:

• What branding actually means for a business in 2023

• If you should give your business your name… or not

• What to do if you decide to change your business name

• What we can learn from businesses like Coca-Cola and Target

• How to use branding as a tool to differentiate yourself from other service providers

• If a slogan or tagline is important these days

• How to choose the perfect typography for your business

• How design values play a role in branding

• How often you should rebrand your business

• Why might need to earn back the trust of your customers after a rebrand

• How to brand yourself whether you’re a solopreneur or part of a firm

• Learn the best tip to keep your logo consistent

• How to leave room for the business branding to change and evolve

• The importance of where you’re marketing your business

• Why it’s actually a good thing to say no to some clients

• The importance of claiming and owning your niche

• How to keep our creative cups full

What was your favorite takeaway from this episode all about business branding? Share and tag us on Instagram!

More about Corey Fuller

Corey Fuller earned his Master of Fine Arts in Design from the University of Central Oklahoma. He currently teaches at Oklahoma Baptist University, where he serves as chair of the Division of Art & Design and holds the Ruth Jay Odom Professorship in Fine Arts. 

Links and Mentioned Resources

Ep 3: Relaying Your Brand as a Mom-preneur with Becca Ellison

Jaber Crow by Wendell Berry

Deep Work by Cal Newport

Connect With Corey Fuller

Website

Instagram

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

Business Coaching for Interior Designers

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Subscribe to Colorful Conversations with Katie Podcast

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More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:00.938)

Hey, Cory, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. I feel like we've had such a good run of people that are not just experts in their field, but they're also really good friends. In fact, before we went on, we were just talking about how Cory's wife and I had our kids in kinder music together. And so I don't know, how many years, Cory, 15? 10, 15? A lot? Yeah, that's gone by a little bit fast.

Corey Fuller (00:02.827)

Hi, Katie. Thanks.

Corey Fuller (00:23.097)

Oh gosh, probably 10 years ago, yeah.

Mm-hmm. It has.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:28.754)

a little bit fast. So Corey.

Obviously, we know you are the branding expert. And when we were talking about this episode, your eyebrows go up. No, you really are. We were talking about this episode. And one thing I wanted to dive straight into with you is the core values of design. Because I think I can say that as designers, we tend to just default to whatever our name is. So it's Katie Erickson Design. It's safe, especially when you're striking out on your own. It feels good. Everyone knows it's you.

Corey Fuller (00:51.683)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:00.074)

and it feels like a good spot. But as we grow, mature, and change, we may want to stick with that, and then we have some built-in brand value, but by the same token, we may not. And so diving in from that standpoint, what are people, especially designers, missing, or what do they really need to be thinking about when talking about branding their business, because brands have value.

Corey Fuller (01:07.423)

Right? Yeah.

Corey Fuller (01:21.671)

Right. So I actually teach a class called ad design and we do a self promo project in that class. And I always tell students you can use your name, you can use your initials, but proceed with caution because your name may change at some point. You know, if you get married, you might change your name. So the other thing to think about is our name is interesting to us. It may not be interesting to other people necessarily. So it's very memorable for us. I had a student several years ago, his name was Cody Smith.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:35.438)

Bye.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:45.506)

That's a great point.

Corey Fuller (01:51.107)

And I said, Cody, I love you. You know, you're a unique guy, but your name is not unique at all. So if you have a really special name, it might work for you. The other thing to think about is if you end up expanding your business, maybe not everyone wants to work under your name.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:59.844)

I love the honesty.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:05.151)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (02:12.035)

Now if you form a partnership, maybe that's a different situation, but I always tell people to pick something that is a mnemonic device, that's memorable, that's catchy, that you can get the Instagram for, you can get the domain name for, all those types of things. Just because you may not want to have your personal name and your personal brand attached to your company necessarily. So it allows for some separation there as well.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:25.003)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:33.166)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:36.606)

And I can hear our audience members going, but Cory, I've already done my name. Now what?

Corey Fuller (02:42.303)

Yeah. Yes. So I mean, a lot of people grow up sketching their own initials, you know, and so they feel invested in that monogram they've made of their initials or the investment they've made in a community to build trust and things. I would say starting out, like if you're in a small community, if you had a name, you could say,

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:52.436)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:56.503)

Hmm.

Corey Fuller (03:03.307)

this is my company and go ahead and still associate yourself with that brand in a pretty significant way. But as you would start to branch out and do more national or international work, then you're just leading with whatever name, whatever monitor you've selected. Because yeah, I would agree. I mean, your name does have value. I mean, that's where your integrity lies is in your name. But that's not necessarily what you want to have as your business as the face of your business. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:23.728)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:30.098)

Is there a magic tipping point? Is it onboarding employees or contractors? Or what kind of is the tipping point where you should really take pause and not necessarily not use your name anymore, but just have that evaluation moment of, now would be a good time if we're gonna make this transition to do so, or if we're not, we have a good reason why.

Corey Fuller (03:50.131)

Right. Yeah. So I mean, thinking about bands, so sometimes bands will put out indie albums and they get really popular, but then they meet with the producer and they say, you know, if you're going to really go places, you need to change your name. And that, that's a, that's a difficult thing. But I feel like if you can sort of create a milestone or a benchmark, maybe it's a new client, maybe it's, um, launching into a new segment or with a different.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:54.222)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:11.831)

Mm.

Corey Fuller (04:12.159)

geographic region in the country, those milestones might make that a better case. Um, but we, we do always talk about when we're rebranding the, the difference between innovation and familiarity. So in that balancing act, so.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:22.294)

Mm.

Corey Fuller (04:28.631)

It could be like you've been using a mark with a particular color palette and you could roll that color palette into your new name. So you still have some kind of tie-in with familiarity so you're not frightening off your existing customer base. It is.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:43.01)

That's a really delicate balance. I've never even thought about that innovation versus familiarity and how you balance those moving forward in a productive way. What else do we need to think about? I know you have a top 10 list that I think is really helpful of what you need to know when you get ready to brand.

Corey Fuller (04:59.955)

Yeah, so I think starting at the top, I mean, just to identify yourself. And so your brand, your mark is a symbol of, of your quality, essentially. So brands are actually very primitive. You know, we've been using pictographs for a long time as, as in culture. And some of the, some of the strongest brands that we can think of are the simplest. So if you think of Apple.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:05.65)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:19.478)

Sure. Yeah.

Corey Fuller (05:28.455)

or shell or target. Those are actually pictographs and they are the thing that you say, you know, so it's just that brutal simplicity. And so I think we need to remember that we're, we're identifying that's, that's our primary goal. The second secondary thing would be to differentiate. So you are who you are, but you're also who you're not. So Coke sort of makes Pepsi's identity and vice versa. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:35.35)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:42.392)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:55.852)

Oh, interesting.

Corey Fuller (05:56.831)

Especially if you're all kind of selling the same thing. So, you know, Coke and Pepsi, it's, it's caffeinated, you know, sugar water, essentially. Um, so they're doing really the same thing, which we all need. Yeah. No judgment. Yeah. I'm a Coke fan. So when I have a strong visceral reaction to Pepsi, I mean, just someone uttering the word pepsi, I'm like, Oh, you know, um, so you need to think about differentiation as well. And, uh,

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:05.622)

which we all need as grownups on occasion. There's no judgment if you're an avid fan.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:13.835)

Me too.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:21.986)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (06:25.719)

So the idea of branding, I mean, it comes from actually putting a hot iron on, you know, a cow. You know, so when we think about branding, it's actually burning this image. So if you can think about ranchers and maybe their fence breaks and the cattle are just roaming the plains, that's your way of identifying them. So it's to differentiate them maybe from another rancher's herd. So

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:35.766)

Ah, yeah, what do you think about it?

Corey Fuller (06:54.835)

Anyway, so yeah, to identify and to differentiate, I think those are two of the primary things that I try to think about at least.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:58.935)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:02.77)

I have to say no one has ever brought up cattle on this podcast yet. This is a new unfounded territory for us. I love that we're now thinking about design firms in terms of cattle. But the point is really well made. You have to differentiate yourself from the pack or the herd. What else do we need to think about?

Corey Fuller (07:09.147)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (07:18.599)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Know that the mark is important, but it's not everything. So that's my side of the equation. I design marks for people. But it's also the meaning that you're investing into it and managing the meaning because that meaning can change over time for people. So sometimes in design theory we talk about semiotics and so you have this signifier.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:28.058)

Oh, interesting.

Corey Fuller (07:48.159)

And then you have this thing signified and together those make a sign. So just at a basic level, you have a red octagon and the thing signified is stopping, right? So we put red octagon together with the idea of stopping and we have a sign now. So you can play that game and you could say, well, what if a red octagon, uh, meant go, you know, so culturally we've invested that meaning into that symbol. Um,

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:53.236)

Interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:56.76)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:13.9)

Right?

Corey Fuller (08:14.791)

and we could change that and mess people up, you know, and we'd have a lot of traffic accidents. But the thing to keep in mind though is this symbol doesn't really have any meaning or value until you invest that into it, and also train people what that symbol means. So I want people to think about the look of their logo and the typography, but moreover, think about the meaning they're investing into it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:20.702)

Back to why more grown-ups need more caffeine. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:30.998)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:42.95)

So with that, I'm going to take a rabbit hole for a minute. How important is our tagline? Are we getting to the point where we're so short in our attention span as Americans that we really just need a logo? And even Starbucks, they don't even really call it Starbucks anymore. You just see the mermaid tail and you know where you are in the designated green. When I think about branding back in the day, 20 years ago, back when I started my business, it was you need a name, you need a logo, and then you need a tagline like ours was. And we still use it quite a bit.

Corey Fuller (08:46.144)

with me.

Corey Fuller (09:00.818)

Yeah. Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:12.984)

spaces into places. How relevant is that in the modern world to have those three components to build a brand? Is it needed?

Corey Fuller (09:20.831)

Yeah, so as far as the tagline or the watchword you would use, if you ask people just in the general public, could you recite this slogan or this tagline, you might get mixed results. Then you would decide, well, maybe this isn't effective. I think it is actually good for your internal culture for people to know.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:24.023)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (09:41.195)

you know, this is who we are, this is who we stand for. So I used to work at a bank before I got into teaching full time. And so our watchword was simple beginnings, strong tomorrows. And that was mimicked in the logo because it had an acorn and it had a post oak leaf. So you had the simple beginnings and then you had the strong tomorrows with the leaf. So that tree going to maturity. And we were trying to create a financial story for people. And so for us like that had a lot of meaning. Now, if we asked our customers,

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:58.231)

Ah, I don't know. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:06.798)

Sure.

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (10:11.563)

You know, what's your slogan? What's your tagline? I don't know if they would know it, but internally it meant a lot to us. And hopefully that was conveyed, you know, in some way, even at a subconscious level and how we worked with people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:23.746)

That makes complete sense. So not really necessary externally, but very important internally, potentially, to creating that culture. Absolutely. What else do we need to think about when we're branding?

Corey Fuller (10:29.575)

Yeah. So I'm going to rip off some Marty Neumeier here. And he says the brand is not who you say it is. It's who they say it is, meaning the general public. So we have a little bit of control. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:38.05)

Do it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:44.886)

The implied versus the inferred. You can imply one thing, but if they're inferring another, it doesn't really matter.

Corey Fuller (10:49.827)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So we have some control. And the reason we're doing a podcast like this is we believe we have some control in how we manage our brand. It's not just complete anarchy. But we do need to wrestle with the idea that, to quote Neumeyer again, brand is a person's gut feeling. So if I say Target, you have a reaction. If I say Walmart, you have a reaction. If I say Oklahoma, I'd be kind of frightened to see what people might think.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:58.402)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:19.586)

Home. Home's the reaction. Yeah.

Corey Fuller (11:20.187)

or say with Oklahoma, but we have probably a precognitive reaction just based on hearing a word or a brand. So we need to be mindful of that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:32.942)

Great points.

Corey Fuller (11:35.851)

Knowing your channels, knowing how to communicate. So, you know, if you're a local business, it might make sense to still run ads in a local magazine or newspaper or school yearbook. But we also need to think about the medium as the message. So how does this particular medium we're using sort of makes a suggestion about what kind of business we are. I often use the example of if you had an attorney and he had racing lights going around his

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:38.573)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:51.842)

Mm.

Corey Fuller (12:05.023)

or a doctor for that matter. Yeah, so that's, yeah, people intuitively pick up on that if this seems professional, if it seems kind of amateur, but I don't want to say all local advertising is amateur because that's not the case. So, you know, sometimes, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:06.882)

Feels a little bit like butter call Saul to me, Corey. I'm just saying. Yeah, it gives its own messaging. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:26.702)

Well, especially, yeah, if that's your target demographic and that's where they are, it's probably more the how than the where. Is that fair to say?

Corey Fuller (12:31.458)

Right.

Corey Fuller (12:35.315)

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. And the why, just thinking through the why of it. Why are we spending our ad dollars this way? There's an old quote that says, I'm wasting half my advertising dollars. I just don't know which half.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:53.262)

I think a lot of solopreneurs feel that way and that it's really hard. And not even solopreneurs, there's a lot of firms too that can feel that way of you kind of feel like you're throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. But I think it really comes back to knowing who is your target demographic. I always like to say, if you're trying to be everything to everyone, you are nothing to no one. And we just can't meet everybody's needs and wants, which is our job as designers, ideally, is we meet our clients' needs and wants. Well, you can't know their needs and wants

Corey Fuller (12:56.524)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (13:06.115)

That's right.

Corey Fuller (13:14.511)

and yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:23.476)

in on your niche and your niche is going to leave other people out in the cold and that's just part of business. You just have to know what appeals.

Corey Fuller (13:28.918)

Thanks.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:33.29)

It's very rare that you would see a very swanky payday loan center, right? You know your target demographic. Their job is to catch your attention and bring you in. That's a whole different dynamic than, say, the banking system you were in, where you're trying to tell a story of moving from the acorn to the oak leaf. It's just a whole different genre.

Corey Fuller (13:46.202)

It's the worst. Yeah.

Corey Fuller (13:54.269)

Yeah, very true.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:55.266)

We had Rebecca Ellison on the show a while back, and she was talking about the value of just putting your face out there, and they're building a relationship with you prior to ever engaging with you. And you can really sell yourself and your brand long before they ever do that discovery call or book that discovery call, which I think is so valuable. I think this all works in tandem, and that you can, whether you choose to be your brand or you choose to build a different brand, just knowing who you are and who you're going after,

realizing you're not gonna get everyone. And that can be hard, especially when you're starting out or you were trying to grow your business, you're like, maybe we should do this and this and this. And back to your point about ad dollars, like, we're just gonna try it all and see what sticks, right? Not helpful. That's the last thing you probably wanna do actually.

Corey Fuller (14:37.18)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (14:41.567)

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That's my number one tip actually. So yeah, you're going to please everybody. So I mean, there's a reason Bernie Sanders was a viable candidate. There's a reason Donald Trump was a viable candidate. And I don't know how anybody feels about those people, but they're very different, but they both had really strong followings. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:48.082)

Is it really? Sorry, did I steal your thunder? That's horrible.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:01.336)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:07.094)

Very strong followings, extremely strong followings. Let's talk about mistakes we make in our brand. I think that's one that's really easy, going back to where we started the conversation of just like, my default is my name, I'll put it in a pretty font and pick a color I like. What mistakes do you see people making with branding? Especially as not only an expert on this, but someone who teaches on it, that when you see it, you're like, do the head smack of, oh no, they did it again, that we can prevent here.

Corey Fuller (15:12.023)

then.

Corey Fuller (15:19.637)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (15:32.147)

Yeah, so I mean, I'm thinking about people starting out.

And you just want to have, I'm going to get technical for just a second, you want to have a good vector of your logo. And so all that means if your listeners don't know what a vector might be, it just means it's scalable. So it's not a pixel based graphic. It's line oriented, it's object oriented. So it would scale up to a billboard or down to a business card. And also creating negative space around your identity system. That's really important.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:40.706)

Please do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:05.587)

Oh yeah.

Corey Fuller (16:08.093)

on your logo. And just think about how it's presented. So always having that high-resolution file or that vector file out there. You can slap your logo on a lot of different things these days and I, you know, I wouldn't recommend doing that, you know. Like if someone says, hey we can put your logo on a rug. Well, what does that imply? You know, you want someone wiping on your logo. So yeah, consistency is key. So like let's say you're working with a service provider,

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:19.217)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:29.075)

Okay.

Corey Fuller (16:37.093)

printer, make sure they get that vector file. If you're working with a sign person, make sure they have that vector file. Also, using consistent typography. And it can be a serif, it can be a sans serif, but think about what does that typeface mean?

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:37.218)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:52.722)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (16:53.247)

you know, what does it elucidate? So if you're more formal, you may want to use a serif. If you're more modern or contemporary, maybe use a sans serif, but using that vector logo and using that consistent typeface in everything you do. And then it will be to the point where when people see a particular typeface, they'll even think of your brand without the logo, which is a pretty cool place to be. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:16.722)

Man, if you can get there, that's money. I love what you said too about white space. I think white space in the world of graphic design is often like a great wine. You gotta have it. It cleanses the palette. So when you do get that punch of color or that beautiful typeface or whatever it is you're going for, you can actually see it. There's nothing that personally drives me nuts more than I look at a business card and I just go cross-eyed because I'm like, do I look here? Do I look there? And you're like, I get that you wanna share all that, but I'm not seeing anything because my eyes are just crossing and I have nowhere to land.

Corey Fuller (17:39.403)

Yes. Yep.

Corey Fuller (17:47.17)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:47.196)

when I look at something or billboards I feel like are notorious for that like oh we have this much space we're gonna fill it with everything under the Sun and you're like driving by and you're like a did it a did it a did it like your brain just like system shut down because you just can't get there

Corey Fuller (18:00.715)

Yeah, that's right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:02.978)

Talk about building your brand. And we always segue into some of the personal parts of business, because we are holistic beings. How do you build your brand if you're listening to this and you're part of a firm? And you're saying, well, my name isn't on it. I love what I do. But I also want to have my own identity and be appreciated for my work. How have you been able to do that at your university, walking your journey? And what would your advice be to other people who are in that same situation where they aren't standing here

or is the principal of the firm, but they very much want to still carve out that space, if you will.

Corey Fuller (18:39.247)

Yeah, so most companies, if they're handling their image well, they'll have some sort of graphic standards manual. And so what you want to think about is how can I be creative, but within those parameters. So when I was with Legacy Bank, I was sort of in charge of managing that brand. And it was a really delicate balance because we wanted to give each of our stores the ability to do their own marketing.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:46.582)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:53.806)

Mm.

Corey Fuller (19:07.195)

and not like come in heavy-handed and say, you can't do that, you know, but also, yeah, this right, but also it's consistent. And so sometimes when you, when you distribute a brand standards manual, people think, oh, I can only use this logo and I can only use this typeface. Well, in reality, there's a lot of creative freedom you would have, you know, in different campaigns you might run within that. So, um,

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:10.602)

Everybody wants a little autonomy in life. Yeah, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:29.634)

Hmm.

Corey Fuller (19:33.375)

You know, when we had multiple designers on staff, I could tell which designer did which piece, but it was still within the standards, you know. So I think if you can think about your market in terms of segments, you might have someone on your team that really speaks in the vernacular of this particular audience. So this person's 18 to 20. This person is going to hit that 50 to 60 demographic.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:40.866)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:57.474)

That's a great point.

Corey Fuller (19:59.167)

But it's still going to be with that same brand personality to it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:04.574)

I think that's a, yeah, well, and understanding there's value, not just that they may hit different people or different demographics or segments, but there's value in them doing so. And it's your chance to give them the freedom to do that, because then you are in a position to capitalize on that value. I think that's immensely important. OK, so you're a dad of three girls.

Corey Fuller (20:19.635)

Yeah, yeah.

Corey Fuller (20:24.148)

I am.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:25.274)

And you're out here doing design in a different genre than say interiors, but still designing and being creative. How are you keeping all the wheels on your bus, so to speak? How how are you doing this out here and still finding time? One thing we always talk about is you can't pour out of an empty cup. We say it on almost every episode for all of us creatives out here. The cup has to get filled before we can go out and create and do and be. And you've done some really cool billboards.

Corey Fuller (20:27.436)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Fuller (20:46.143)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (20:54.371)

Thanks.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:55.368)

billboards around Oklahoma that are just stunning. Where are you finding the time, the energy, and what places are speaking to you as you continue to fill up your cup?

Corey Fuller (21:06.407)

Yeah, so I mean you did mention I have three girls. I'm 40 plus right now. I'll just say that so

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:13.042)

Yeah, after 40 we all use the plus mark. It's okay. We don't have to get specific.

Corey Fuller (21:18.511)

I think it's just being a little more intentional about which projects I want to take on and also determining the why.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:23.608)

Hmm.

Corey Fuller (21:26.655)

that. So I always tell my students, I want you to do free work. I don't want you to do free pitching or design contests or things like that necessarily, but do some pro bono work that's just good for your soul. So maybe you're a part of a nonprofit or you're part of a church and you want to work for those organizations because you have something to offer to them. So that's actually counterintuitive. You would think doing more work makes you lose your soul or whatever, but like those are sort

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:36.206)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:43.051)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:51.682)

Hehehehe

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:57.582)

I love that.

Corey Fuller (21:58.449)

So yeah, so being kind of choosy about what you do. I think professional development is always important. So if you need to take a class or brush up on some software, that can be really good as well. So sharpening the axe from time to time is really critical. So this sounds counterintuitive as well, because you don't want to dwell too much on the past.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:21.768)

No.

Corey Fuller (22:24.299)

But sometimes when you're in a really busy chapter of life, which I'm in that right now...

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:29.07)

For sure, I think we can relate.

Corey Fuller (22:29.127)

I kind of go back and I look at some of the old stuff that I've done. Some of it I'm really critical of. I'm like, oh, that was garbage, you know? But some of it I think, you know, that wasn't too bad. And so you kind of give yourself like a little personal pep talk to say, you know, I've done some good work in the past. I'll continue to do good work, hopefully. But maybe in this chapter right now, it's just not a season where I'm feeling particularly productive. But that will come back because it ebbs and flows.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:36.795)

Hahaha

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:54.91)

It so does. And I think giving ourselves the grace to hang out in that space. I'll never forget being in a yoga class and the instructor said, we're coming into fall, was coincidentally last year at this time. And just like the leaves and the trees go from being outward facing to being inward facing, and they come in and they could cocoon so that next spring they will burst forth again. And I was like, huh, I never really thought about it like that. That was a major eye opener for us type A first borns who plow ahead through all seasons

Corey Fuller (22:58.027)

Hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:25.664)

to say, huh, maybe I need a fall, not just as a person, but as a creative to say, I'm gonna come in and cocoon for a minute so when we come out of the gate, we can blossom and create new things. You alluded to something, you said, the power of choosing the projects you want. And I think that's something, to go back to your 40 plus comment, I've gotten a lot more comfortable with in my 40 plus years, is saying no, and just saying, I don't think this is a good fit,

Corey Fuller (23:25.731)

Mm-mm.

Corey Fuller (23:32.173)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (23:37.347)

Alright, let's go.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:54.784)

we've gotten to the point where I'm so sorry we're not doing those types of projects anymore or being gracious and still offering the decline and choosing to work with the people that energize you and are creative as well. We've all had the client that feels like your soul's kind of being shot back. And once you experience that, it's very empowering to say graciously, no, thank you.

Corey Fuller (24:07.82)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (24:16.085)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (24:20.263)

Yeah, yeah that idea of a gracious decline I need to work on that one because I'm usually just like no

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:28.532)

Okay, there's an element of personality in this for sure. Yeah.

Corey Fuller (24:32.427)

But there's into that because you might want to work with that client later. So you're not burning that bridge is probably pretty important.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:38.582)

Well, and I think the word the especially black and white type A people, sometimes we can be like this where it's either red or green in life, but they're just like stoplights. There's a chance for yellow. The not right now. I love that you said that because like you said, this season's very busy and very full of all the things. And it's not that I'm saying, no, I'm just saying not right this moment. We have a full plate. Let's try again later. I think that's so incredibly smart. What else are we missing?

Corey Fuller (24:50.743)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (25:02.047)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:08.064)

as designers that you would say.

Make sure and keep an eye out for this. If you go to rebrand or you're coming into a branding season or you know, when I feel like that always pops up is we get a brand and then we sit on that brand and five years go by and we're still sitting on that brand. How do you know when to brand refresh and back to your point of innovation versus familiarity, keeping some of that going? I mean, is there a good timeline we should be looking at in our firm saying every three years we should revisit that or.

Corey Fuller (25:24.727)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (25:29.868)

me.

Corey Fuller (25:38.675)

Yeah, so three years seems quick to me. I think five years. This is probably a personal preference and it would depend on what kind of market you're in as well.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:41.505)

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:47.154)

Fair point.

Corey Fuller (25:47.903)

So as a graphic designer, I was trained in that Swiss style of graphic design, high modernism. So you make this mark and it's minimalistic and it never needs to change. It's just sort of invested with whatever meaning you put into it. That's not, I mean, in the postmodern world, that's not exactly where we are anymore. So from every three to five years, we probably do need to examine it. I'm a big list maker. So I always make a list of pros and cons, like, okay, we could rebrand.

which would give us this, but it will also take this away and it would cost us this much. So websites probably the easiest thing to do any kind of digital presence is super easy to, you know, put a new brand on. If you're a brick and mortar, you got signage. If you have customers, you know, engaging with a physical space, it's just gonna be more expensive, you know, uniforms for your employees. So those weigh pretty heavily in the pro and con. Also,

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:38.339)

for sure.

Hmm.

Corey Fuller (26:47.777)

something you're moving away from. So if you're trying to, I'd say baggage, but if you're kind of saying this is who we aren't anymore, that's, that's a great time to do a rebrand. Um, now I will say one, like caveat I would put in if.

If you think you're just going to rebrand and everybody's like, Oh, they must be new and different and better. That's not necessarily the case. You'll have to kind of re-earn that trust and let's say, okay, they have this new look is their customer service. Any better is our product. You better. And if it's not, then, Whoa, you've just like flushed all that rebranding money down the drain. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:20.014)

straight down the drain. Yeah.

I think that's a key component, especially with your brick and mortar. But to think of all the avenues, one thing too, I would say, is if you're getting ready to go through a major growth period, that's a time to pay attention to that too. Because the further in you go, this hit me the other day. Because we have the coaching side of our business. We have the podcast, obviously, the webcast. And our listeners here, we have the design firm still. All of those colors are symbiotic, but they have different logos and brands among them.

Corey Fuller (27:31.178)

and

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:52.412)

in now it would be crazy but doing it a year ago is a perfect time to tweak our colors and update as we knew we were going into a season of massive growth year and a half ago or so and that worked out really well for us because we saw that there's going to be all these incarnations and we want to get ahead of that was something we like out of the gate

Corey Fuller (27:54.795)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (28:11.519)

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Okay. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:14.078)

Okay, lightning round time. I love lightning round. All right, let's go for it. One book that has most changed your life and why.

Corey Fuller (28:22.611)

So the book would be Jabir Crow, which is by Wendell Berry. And I would need to also specify I read this book while I had COVID. I was in a room alone for a week.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:32.566)

Okay, so a little bit of a different lens.

Corey Fuller (28:38.171)

And it was like a really difficult time. So it probably, if I go back and read it may not have the same impact, but it's about this guy and he struggles with his vocation and his calling, and he ends up being a barber in his hometown and he's almost like a therapist for, for the town.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:41.55)

I'm sorry.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:54.414)

For sure.

Corey Fuller (28:55.839)

He's in love with this woman who's married. So that, that's sort of the conflict in the story. Uh, but there's, there's sort of a contrast to Jabir in this guy named Troy and he's a farmer, but he overworks his land, he overplays his hand. And so that's sort of the, the story to not be followed. Um, you know, if we're trying to make it a parable, um, he's, he's all about efficiency, just squeezing as much as he can out of his land and, um, Jabir has taken a different path. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:00.397)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:08.43)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:25.259)

I love that.

Corey Fuller (29:25.543)

Yeah, it's a really powerful book. It's a powerful story.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:29.662)

and probably has more meaning coming into this season of life too. I don't know that I would have appreciated that so much in my 20s or even my early 30s, but sitting here comfortably seated in the mid 40s. Man, that resonates just even hearing the synopsis of it. We do. We're human. We're just human. Okay. Speaking of 20s and 30s, what advice would you have given your 20 year old self if you could go back?

Corey Fuller (29:39.33)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (29:42.603)

We all have limits and so we have to recognize that. Yeah.

Corey Fuller (29:56.415)

in my 20 year old self. So I would have been in college at that time. I was kind of before I met my wife geared towards like monasticism. I thought I'm not going to marry. I won't have kids, a house. Yeah. So I think I would have told myself just to chill out a little bit. I was just anxious and kind of high strung and probably kind of arrogant as well.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:07.519)

Three kids and a wife later who is the sweetest wife ever by the way. Yeah, totally different.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:23.598)

Sure, sure.

Corey Fuller (30:24.827)

which was compensating for all my nervousness. So yeah, just to listen to people, be humble and listen to people, I think, the people that care. You don't wanna listen to every voice out there, but the people that are really caring about you that are investing in you, just listen to them.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:45.874)

Such wise words because I forget who said it but like basically the older I get the more I realize the less I know And that's such a that's a great spot to be in that's like one of one of our mantras is tell me what I'm missing I know I'm missing something feel free to tell me what it is Especially what like to your point when it comes from someone you trust and you know, who really does care. That's a big thing

Corey Fuller (30:52.095)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (30:58.367)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (31:07.088)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:08.67)

And I know, especially as we've talked about, we're in a busy season of life. And whether you have one kid, five kids, no kids, a spouse, no spouse, I don't know anyone who says, oh, my plate has tons of room on it. With that in mind, what is your time hack? What have you found to be a way that you can make it through the day? A tip, a trick, a hint.

Corey Fuller (31:21.484)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (31:31.079)

Yeah, so I read a book called Deep Work a few years ago by Cal Newport. It's a great book. And one of the tips he gives in that is sort of shutting down at the end of your day. So not just like throwing the laptop in the bag and rushing out the door, but, you know, 30 or so minutes before you're going to end your work day, think about, okay, what do I have to do tomorrow? Um, what do I need to wrap up like right now? So I don't have to think about it while I'm at home. So that idea of.

you leave work and all of us have that physical workspace so it probably becomes more important. But I'm going to concentrate on this and I'm going to say, okay, I can't solve this right now. I'm going to push this to another day, not to put it off, but to plan for it. And then when I'm at home, I can just be me at home or be the dad or whoever I need to be in my various roles. And that way I'm not occupying my mental energy thinking about work while I'm at home because

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:01.198)

That's a great one.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:29.302)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (32:30.913)

physically like putting it in a bag and zipping it up, you know, I'm not going to pull this out until tomorrow or Monday or something. Um, so that that's, it's not like a time efficiency hack necessarily, but it's like a mental energy hack to where, so I used to make this bad habit and I would take my laptop home and think, I'll do this after the kids go to bed. And then all night I'm thinking about, like, I've got to do this thing tonight. And then I just wouldn't do it. And I thought, I started thinking if I, if I'll just tell myself and

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:33.954)

Totally.

Corey Fuller (33:01.233)

and kind of cultivate the time for it, then I won't have to have all the mental strain sort of procrastinating about it. I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna start this at this point. So that's been helpful to me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:10.41)

Any good? I think.

I think it's amazing because you go into the next day feeling so much more refreshed and like you have had the mental space instead of this like looming cloud of should pull out laptop and produce more work, right? Instead it's like, I've spent time with my kids, I've been a good dad, we've dealt with all the feelings and had all the afterschool conversations and we made it through dinner and everyone's still alive, which sometimes is hard depending on what's being served. My kids wail and gnash their teeth. But then you can go into the next day and you can say, okay, now I'm here, this is the time, this is the space.

Corey Fuller (33:16.119)

That's right.

Corey Fuller (33:22.367)

Yes, yeah.

Corey Fuller (33:31.531)

Yeah.

Corey Fuller (33:41.331)

Yeah, yeah, and being present in each of those roles in each of those places. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:42.843)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:46.806)

Great advice, great advice. This was wonderful. Thank you, Corey, so much for your time. What a great conversation. Thank you.

Corey Fuller (33:51.788)

Thank you. It was a pleasure. So thank you.