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Finances & Marketing for Interior Designers in 2025 [The Table]
If you’re feeling like cancelling your subscription to 2025, hold the phone! Between the natural disasters, shifty political landscapes, and inflation rates that just seem to keep going up up up—it’s feeling like a lot. For all of us. No matter how big or small, new or experienced, or even where in the world your interior design business is located, we’re all feeling the financial impact. So let’s talk about it!
LuAnn Nigara, Rick Campos, and Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe join me for an incredibly transparent conversation about what’s changing for their budgeting and marketing in 2025. Tune in to hear what these experts’ 2024 reviews revealed and how they’re applying those findings to each of their businesses. From leaning into unique marketing strategies, to engaging new and existing communities, to looking for economies of scale—there’s no stone left unturned! And of course, the conversation continues in this week’s Coaching Corner. Let’s dive in!
In this episode, we cover:
How inflation is impacting interior design firms in 2025
The one area of your business to not pull back investing in
Where to focus your efforts so you attract your most ideal clients
How to generate more income while doing what you love
Unique organic marketing strategies for interior designers to consider
The best way to engage your community and maintain impact while marketing
A huge tech trap you can easily avoid this year
The impact authenticity has on growing your interior design business
Where to look for economies of scale to get the biggest ROI without sacrificing quality
I hope this conversation with these interior design experts encourages you! These quarterly conversations are meant to give you a sneak peek into where we’re at as an industry, what’s working, what’s not, and to be reminded you’re not alone in this. We’re all here figuring this thing out together.
There is someone who can help you—and no shame in the game of sticking up your hand and asking for support to figure out how to best move forward. Whether you contact us on social to share your thoughts from this conversation or to ask for that coaching support, we’d love to hear from you!
More About LuAnn Nigara
LuAnn is a celebrated media personality, energetic keynote speaker, and seasoned entrepreneur—with key roles in the partnership team behind both Window Works and Exciting Windows! Known for her dynamic and energetic presentations, LuAnn has been recognized as the “go-to” keynote speaker for leaders and entrepreneurs to launch their life and get out of their own way. She’s captured international attention for A Well-Designed Business®—a podcast with more than 1,000 episodes and over 8 million downloads!
More About Rick Campos
Rick is a self proclaimed recovering interior designer, podcast host, and design business coach. He's on a mission to support and elevate the interior design community, having held thousands of conversations with designers and industry experts about the business of design. Rick leverages these lessons and generous advice from his peers to inform and empower design entrepreneurs across the globe to build stronger, more profitable businesses.
More About Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe
Doctor Jennifer brings a global perspective from Nigeria with her multifaceted expertise. As an interior designer, coach, and author, she's dedicated to helping professionals, entrepreneurs, and interior designers thrive in their spaces, their lives, and their businesses through design. With her extensive knowledge and experience, she has successfully taught over 800 interior designers how to build, grow, and scale their businesses while maintaining profitability.
Links and Mentioned Resources
Connect with LuAnn Nigara
Connect with Rick Campos
Connect with Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe
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Plumtree is a fractional technology service provider. This means you will have access to top dedicated talent for a fraction of the price. Together we can craft the perfect technology infrastructure for you and your company, and give you the support you need to stay calm.
Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson
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Business Coaching for Interior Designers
Follow Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design
More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design
As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship.
This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and the creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm.
Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows
[Katie]
Do you love interior design but can't make the business side work? You've come to the right place. Welcome to Success by Design, mastering the business of interior design.
Whether you want to elevate in your current interior design firm, start your own firm, or move the needle when it comes to your existing firm's trajectory, this is your masterclass and I'm your host, Katie Erickson. Learn from my mistakes as I built a coast-to-coast multi-million dollar interior design firm. I share nearly 20 years of serving as a university professor of undergraduate and graduate business courses with you.
And best of all, I bring in experts in all things business and interior design. Class starts now. Hey everyone, welcome to the table.
We are back at it again. Can you believe it is already Q1 of 2025? Where did that time go?
As I saw a fabulous meme, it said, I took the trial subscription of the first 14 days and I'm canceling my subscription. So if you were feeling that way about your business, or if you're feeling that way about life, you've come to the right place because we're having conversation today. What are you changing up in 2025 when it comes to your finances and your marketing?
It's a big thing, especially as economics change. And as of this recording today, the Fed came out with their inflation number at 2.9%. What does that do to things? There's a lot of questions on the table, no pun intended.
And so that's why we brought in the experts. And so we have Rick and Jennifer and Luanne back. You know them from our first one, which is linked in the show notes.
And so welcome to the table again, everybody. Thank you very much. Hello.
It's so good to see you guys. Lu, I want to start with you because we kicked around this topic before we brought it up to Rick and Jennifer, but let's talk 2025 financials and marketing. It's a big deal, especially coming off of 2024.
What are you seeing from your perch on the branch?
[LuAnn]
Well, I mean, for me, a lot of what I evaluate is what's happening at WindowWorks because, you know, it's established business, it's multiple million dollar gross revenue. And so, you know, what's happening there, you know, informs us at EW, Exciting Windows and also at L&E. And interestingly, Vin and myself and my son-in-law, JC, had a pretty tough conversation right before we broke for the holiday break in that we increased revenue from 23 to 24, but operational expenses increased like 29 or 30 percent.
[Katie]
Inflation's real.
[LuAnn]
Yeah. And what happened was, of course, as a functioning, smart business person, you have to think, were we just blowing money? Were we not watching things?
And you have Nagara on the team and he's a lunatic. And he went line by line by line. And he was saying to JC and I that a big chunk of it was insurance, like insurances increased, like I want to say, by 22 or 28 percent.
But it was like disheartening because you sold more, but you earned less money and you didn't earn less money because you made mistakes or because you screwed around with your own profit margin, but because operational expenses just went out of the gigigy. And so then the next conversation was, well, what do we do? Like, you can't reduce insurances.
Like, you can shop around and we did, but you can't be like, that's it. No truck insurance. That's it.
No health insurance. Like, you stranglehold it on it. And so we got to pull it from other places.
So it's a very healthy marketing budget at Window Works. You know, it's a six figure marketing budget. I don't know if it's at one hundred and ten or one hundred and fifty, but you don't pull back marketing that's working.
[Katie]
OK, can you just say that one more time? Because that's where people automatically go is like the market's down. Let's cut marketing.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Last category, please.
[LuAnn]
Yes. So that is the dilemma, though, like marketing that's working. You don't pull back.
So our marketing worked in that we increased revenue last year. But it's like one of the few line items that you can do something about, like you can look in January and go instead of spending 150, let's spend 120 and that'll make up for the thirty thousand dollar increase in insurance. And so it was a hot conversation, not heated, but just like a tough one.
We're just like, well, if we pull back the marketing like then, well, we have less revenue and higher expenses at the end of twenty twenty five. And so I can't tell you we got it figured out yet. I can tell you that for right now, we're trying to explore more high touch organic ways to maybe impact some marketing without really reducing that number.
But, you know, we're going to have to rob Peter to pay Paul somewhere. You can't have a 30 percent, 25 percent increase in expenses and a 16 percent increase in revenue and think that this business will survive if we do nothing for five years, if we continue to spend higher percentage on operational and lower percentage on growth. That's not a healthy business.
That's a business at five years. You're like, why aren't any of us making any money? So we're trying to deal with it now.
But it is not an easy dilemma.
[Katie]
And I really appreciate your transparency and honesty, because I think there's probably a lot of listeners that are sitting out there and going, I did everything I was supposed to. Why isn't this going the way that I want? And to hear that from someone like Louie and then you're like, oh, it's not just me.
OK, thank you so much. I'm not failing. No, you are not failing.
Rick, are you seeing this in your coaching clients? Like what are you seeing them change up when it comes to their marketing and visibility?
[Rick]
I think right now what I'm seeing a lot of both for myself and through my coaching clients is really this heightened interest in that visibility and really kind of focusing on their messaging and being very intentional about the projects that they're trying to attract and the clients that are right for them, the clients that are actually profitable. So all of the designers that I'm working with, they've got great projects. Some of them have more than they probably need or want.
So they're in a place where they're having to now make a decision. I need to narrow this lane. I need to be more selective.
I get to start saying no. I know not every designer is in that position, but a lot of them are. And that is really driven by your messaging.
So I want to say like three out of the five coaching clients that I've worked with last quarter, all were focusing on revamping their website. So much so even I'm revamping my website. So four of us simultaneously are revamping websites because as I was working with them, I've started saying maybe I should take my own advice and kind of freshen things up, fine tune my messaging, be more specific, ask for the things that I want, tell and inform people the services that I provide.
So I've spent a lot of time with designers talking about messaging and really dialing that in, amping up their SEO, because listen, we're competing with so many other designers and I don't like the word competition, but you know what I mean when I say it, especially in Orange County, you can't throw a rock without hitting another designer. So everyone is trying to kind of establish that differentiating factor. And in order to do that, you really have to be honed in on your messaging and your intention and the services that you want to provide to attract the clients that you want to service.
[Katie]
Well, and that's one thing we've talked about, too, is that classic idea of lonely work. If the market is down and you're not turning away your projects and you have a hot minute, I don't want to say this, but yeah, you don't have a hot minute because that means there's work for you to do, laying the foundation once again so that when you have the time to shine and that dream client does come forward, you're positioned for success. This is what I love to coach, too.
It's not to say that you're twitchy, but a little bit, right? Like if it's quiet, I'm like, why is it quiet and what should I be doing? Something isn't right.
It's a lot like parenting. Like if it's quiet, something's wrong and we should fix it. I want to talk to Jennifer because last time she was on the table and was great about reminding me of this, we were talking about balance.
And Jennifer, your goal, as I recall, for 2025 was let's get some work-life balance in here. Let's figure out how we're going to do this well in 2025. And by well, we mean sustainable and not that rabid squirrel straddling a barbed wire fence.
Right. So what does this look like for you and what have you changed in your marketing approach, knowing that you might have a different goal than growth? Maybe it's more on the personal growth side of things.
[Jennifer]
So for me this year, I'm more focused on what I love. Right. It's also stemmed from the work-life balance.
So what do I love? I love to teach. I had to look at the revenue streams from last year and most of it came from coaching and teaching.
And I had to ask myself, do I see myself on a construction site, on a site at 50, 60? I don't think so. So I'm tending towards things that I love and I want to now invest more time and energy doing what I love.
So it doesn't feel like work. Right. So for us this year, we are positioning our interior design school to like an air tech kind of situation.
So more technology driven because I also have a master's in IT. So I'm like, OK, I love interior design. I love IT.
But I just figured it would just make more sense to just do what I love and generate more income from what I love. So, yeah. So this year we're focusing more on visibility in terms of the school.
Not to sound proud, I always say we don't have competition in Nigeria in terms of the school because I'm one of the pioneers. Right. So I want to position globally now.
I think we've set the tone. So we want to create more visibility globally and see how we can expand our training to West African countries, East Africa, South Africa and see how we can do it globally. So for me, it's more education, visibility and see how we can spread.
So all our marketing will be going towards that to create visibility. Yeah.
[Katie]
But there's such a nugget in there that you looked at your profits. Where are you making money? Then it's coupled with this is what I love anyway.
Yeah. That's a good niche to march into. Something you love that makes money.
Yeah. Done.
[Jennifer]
And they can still be work-life balance. Yeah.
[Katie]
That's a smart lady. That's a smart lady. Well said, Lou.
So Lou, going back to what you mentioned, you talked about organic marketing when you're looking at spending your budget in 2025. What does that mean to you? What are you teasing out and what are you finding that is unique and maybe not something that would be top of consciousness to our audience?
[LuAnn]
Well, for the interior side, so there's different strategies. This one applies to both, I guess, but primarily to the interior side of the WindowWorks business is we're looking like, look, I developed a designer business starting in 1984 for a very specific reason. I can see three people a day or I can have also in partnership 10 designers that are also seeing three people a day.
And so our designer business at WindowWorks is healthy. But the thing is that every business owner needs to adjust, especially when you hit some stride. Right.
So in the beginning, startup mode, it's a do that. Right. But when you hit stride, whether that's five years or 40 years like us, you have to just go, hey, did we stop doing the things?
Did we stop doing some of the things that work? And so to Jennifer's point on the interior side, I would rather strengthen and reframe and go deeper into 15 existing designer accounts, trying and root out 15 more than worry about placing an ad in a regional magazine to hit 20,000 consumers that 18,000 of them aren't going to see the ad and 200 of them need window treatments. And so it's the type of thing where this is the business that keeps giving.
So we're going to look on all fronts, like what are we doing intentionally to cultivate new designers? What are we doing intentionally to pay back and give back and acknowledge the designers that are giving business every day? And then what are we doing to intentionally uplevel the quality that we deliver to a designer so that the designers like that was good is like, no, no, no, no, no.
That was better than anything I've ever been through. I got to keep going to Window Works because I just said it's like our best shot at big impact. You know, if I can bring 10 new designers in here, that could be a half a million dollars.
[Katie]
Yeah, that's huge.
[LuAnn]
You know, it could be 50,000, 10 could each give me a $5,000 order. But it's the biggest shot at impact that I'm not spending dollar bills on. So if I have to pull it back from the marketing budget to pay for the stupid insurance.
Yeah, I love that you were talking that.
[Katie]
Yeah.
[LuAnn]
I mean, the line items on a larger business are ridiculous. You know, like per person insurance is up to like 20, 25K a person. You got a management team of five people.
[Katie]
Well, all insurance. I mean, I'm thinking about all of our designers that are in L.A. right now and everything that they're going through and that whole area and the massive amount of devastation and like insurance rates. I mean, there was a great article, I believe it was also in The Wall Street Journal talking about like who's going to pay for this.
We're all going to pay for this. Like the money has to come from somewhere for these billions of dollars. And I don't think we're done playing the insurance game, whether it's health insurance, professional liability.
I mean, it goes on and on. I think we're going to be here for a really hot minute.
[LuAnn]
And you know what? Before we switch to another topic with these guys, I just want to say like the analogy to a designer listening. OK, so I'm going to lean into my designer business over here and we're going to try and do that.
But a designer listening, it's like I tell the chairman of the board clients I have all the time. I'm like, we're going to go back. I want to go back three years, five years, whatever it is.
You have a CRM. Great. If you don't go pull the records out of the post-it boxes, but go identify, you know, all the clients for the previous three years.
Then which one said I eventually want to do a kitchen? I eventually want to do this. So like I'm going back deep into my designer accounts here.
You go back into your consumer accounts. So Sally Smith, you finished a project two years ago and she didn't say she had something to do, but you kind of got friendly with Sally Smith. And you know that this spring her child is graduating middle school, high school, college.
Send something.
[Katie]
Yes.
[LuAnn]
Thinking about you. It's been a couple of years since I saw you. And I just realized, you know, Susie is graduating high school.
What are her plans for the summer or the fall?
[Katie]
Nurture. You have to nurture.
[LuAnn]
Organic marketing is creative and designers should be good at that.
[Katie]
They should be. Nurture and dance with the one that brung you. It's an old Harvey McKay book, right?
But like these are the people that are already there. I literally coached a designer on this yesterday. She's like, I'm so excited.
I'm going to do half page ads. They're $400 a pop. And then fast forward 30 minutes into the conversation and she goes, OK, so I had this client and I brought in the painter.
It didn't work out the way I wanted to. Long story short, we owe the painter 500 bucks. Should I split it with the client?
And I'm like, is this the last taste in her mouth she's going to have from you? No, no. This is way cheaper than buying a half page ad, praying something sticks.
Keep her happy.
[Jennifer]
Write the check.
[Katie]
And I'm like, and then write her a note and say, this didn't go the way we wanted to. This is not your responsibility. I've written a check to the painter and I look forward to our next project together.
That's what you do to take care of the people that brung you, so to speak. Like nurture, nurture, nurture, create those nurture sequence. Along with nurturing comes community.
And Rick, how are you engaging with community when it comes to your marketing efforts in 2025? Because you have some things going down.
[Rick]
Yeah, I think that my approach is kind of an extension of what Luann was talking about, about the quality over quantity. And from my perspective as a business person, I, too, am looking at the things that work and worked really well and then doubling down on those things. So, for example, my retreats that I do every year, they're getting bigger, they're getting better.
But the number of people is not increasing. I'm keeping that small. And people are saying, why do you keep it so small?
It's because of the impact. I love that. You know, if I grow it bigger, I'm afraid I'm going to lose steam on that impact.
And that kind of translate to many businesses, including design. We have to always be looking for ways to improve the impact that we're having on our clients. You were just saying, and I say this all the time.
You know, our clients won't remember everything that we did and everything that we said, but they'll remember how we made them feel. And I've spent the last two years talking about the client experience in all different facets. I've recreated a presentation a half a dozen times on it.
And finally, I just invested in a coaching program over the holidays by Will Godara based on the book Unreasonable Hospitality, which is the book that I gather this information from a reference constantly in my presentations. And so now I'm like, I'm doing what I tell my clients to do. Go out there, get more education, learn more and create something that's going to be more impactful.
And so now I'm able to speak to designers more formally and more structured about all of the touch points of their business, the impact that moments have on the client experience and those type of things. So community really is about supporting each other, inspiring each other. And I plan on kind of leveraging the community, really the design community, to kind of get this information out there to everyone.
[Katie]
Makes complete sense. And Jennifer, you're collaborating. This is interesting, the themes that are coming out of this as far as collaboration and nurture.
There's some very strong words coming to mind. You're doing your own set of partnerships and collaborations as you look to grow even on a global scene, really.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So for me, collaboration is the new competition. Right.
So it doesn't make sense trying to do everything yourself anymore.
[Katie]
You can say that again.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. Yeah. I've gotten to the point where I'm like, Jennifer, you know, you don't have to solve all the problems yourself.
You can actually partner with someone.
[Katie]
That's why I have you all sitting here at the table. I'm not doing this on my own. I want to hear from you.
Yes.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So it just makes it easier. Right.
And by collaborating, you also see that you're learning from each other. You're growing together. You're making mistakes together.
And that's just the best way to go about it. So this year, especially with the global partnerships, definitely. Don't be surprised if you see me coming up on YouTube.
Don't be surprised if you see me doing a TV show or a podcast. Don't be surprised if I call you guys to come do a podcast with me.
[LuAnn]
There's nothing that you would say or do that would surprise me, actually.
[Jennifer]
Not at this point. Because I also like to talk, right? So I just figured that, OK, leverage on the things that you love.
Talking is one of the things that you love. You love to talk. You love to teach.
Yes. Why not just to have fun? And if it's global, that means I can be at my house and I'm just having fun and I'm teaching and I'm loving what I do.
So collaboration for me is the next thing. Even for my school, I just decided that if I was going to even partner with someone, I could think about a franchise model, right? For African countries.
So I don't necessarily need to go to Ghana or Ceylon or another African country to open a school. Right. So I could franchise it, right.
And just make money.
[Katie]
And I love it.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So for me, it's all about collaborations this year.
[Katie]
I agree. And that's what Lou was saying, too. It's the economies of scale, right?
Like that's a big thing coming out of this. Economies of scale and knowing when not to economize as well. To Rick's point, you don't want to compromise that quality.
Could you blow up your seminars? Like you said, absolutely. But I lose the quality.
That is a delicate balance. Like where can we economize? Don't cut your marketing.
Right. We've talked about that. But where can you get these economies of scale?
So you get the biggest bang for your buck or the biggest return on investment that ROI we talk about while not compromising on quality. And I think that's the heart of what we're looking at in 2025. Like you're going to get that when you nurture those relationships.
[Rick]
That's perfectly said, Katie. And I hope every designer listening really kind of wrote that down because it applies to all businesses, especially interior design businesses.
[Katie]
Lou, thank you, Rick. I want to talk financials. What is the biggest financial change and shift that you're making if we're not cutting marketing?
And yes, if you haven't written that one down yet, we got to write that down. Don't cut your marketing. Don't cut your marketing.
Don't cut your marketing. What are we cutting? I love what you said about shopping insurance.
Yeah. First of all, if you don't have insurance, that's a whole nother conversation. Right.
But can you look at existing expenses and shop them? Are there any other categories you're looking at that you're like, we need to shop this because this went up 30 percent last year and we're not going to accept that?
[LuAnn]
Yes. I mean, and I think no matter what your business model is, like on the podcast, I found out that I was spending 20K with the podcasting host that I was using for a feature that I was under the impression that I needed to spend extra money for. And then I talked to my friend Katie Kramitzos, who has a podcast that does over a million downloads every day of the week.
And yeah, it's not. And she's like, no, Lou, don't use that platform. Use this one.
I was like, wait, what? And so, you know, in twenty twenty four, I saved this business, L.N. Inc., like seventeen thousand dollars, you know, with one looking at a line item and reaching out to somebody. And I basically called her.
I'm like, Katie, I know that your business model can afford it. But is this right? Right.
And so it's like with with WindowWorks, it's line by line item. And we do a tech audit. I think a smaller business like Lou Anna Gara Inc.
is or designers businesses. You can get in the trap of, you know, you signed up for this tech and you're not using it. It's like the gym membership, like where you just sign up and you stop going and nobody knows.
You know, like we signed up for Hoppy Copy last year. I was so in love with Hoppy Copy for like a hot six months. And of course, if I really think I'm going to use something, it's going to be good.
I'll be like, what's the per month rate and what's the pay in full rate for the year? And if it's a significant difference, I'm like, pay it in full. Go do it.
Right. And so the pay in full rate was a good difference and we paid it. But then I found the paid version of Chachi BT.
I didn't need Hoppy Copy anymore. And so I didn't want to wait and I paid for it. But the Hoppy Copy, I'm like, you have to make sure that is on off because a smaller design firm will just find themselves with anywhere from two or three hundred dollars a month to maybe just a thousand a year.
But it's your thousand dollars. And if your business is grossing one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, do you want to not have three or four thousand dollars because you're just not even paying attention? And it's hard not to pay attention because you're usually by yourself.
So and making the spreadsheet of what it is. So the thing is, whether it's a big business like Window Works or it's a little business, you've got to just get your QuickBooks out. Go line by line.
We have been with the same insurance company for forty two years. Vinny was like, no, we're shopping it. And then the other thing we do is we pay as much as we can on the cash back cards.
Yes. And the different cards that at the end of the year, you're like, give me a check back for four K. Thank you.
So the thing is, there's nothing sexy. There's nothing earth shattering. It's the same old, same old good business practices.
[Katie]
But so many don't do it. I totally agree with you. And you have so many nuggets in there starting with the cash back card.
Get a cash back card, pay it off every month. They give us so many thousands of dollars to swipe. And I'm like, really, are you making money on this?
Because we pay it every month. But it's so great. And here's the thing.
If you're one of those smaller business owners, they send you a check that is sent to you personally. But you don't have to pay business taxes. Taxes are free money, free money.
If you're leaving that on the table. I personally like the Capital One two percent unlimited cash back myself. That's my personal favorite at the moment.
Plug. Totally. I'll put it in the show notes.
You can click the link.
[Rick]
But sponsorships available.
[Katie]
Sponsorships, thank you Rick. But it's no limit, no categories. I'm like, you're going to pay me to swipe this.
Why would I not be doing that? And to your point about being with your insurance provider for 42 years, if you think you're loyal to them, they are not loyal to you. I just got the notice that our current policyholder and we have had zero claims, but they're canceling our professional liability effective at the end of January.
They just arbitrarily decided that, like, we won't be renewing it. I'm like, what do you mean? I paid you.
I've had no problems. Like we've had zero claims, zero problems. What's the deal?
I don't know. Some algorithm said you're denied. So we had to go shop again.
So if they're busy shopping you, you should be shopping them every single year, no matter how much you like them.
[LuAnn]
Yeah, we want to work with somebody who makes mistakes and every day in their business and we can make money off of them. Right?
[Katie]
Yeah. Saying that.
[LuAnn]
Yes, Rick.
[Rick]
Can I just chime in here for a second since we're on this topic? You know, anybody that is a member of a professional organization like ASID, NKBA, IDS, first of all, that's a great example of an annual membership that you may be paying and not utilizing. So shame on you.
Start going to your meetings. Don't cancel it. Dig deeper, log in and understand all the benefits aside from just like the monthly meetings and the networking opportunities that are out there.
Listen, IDS has a group insurance policy, a liability insurance policy at a discounted rate for members. They have access to health insurance for members.
[Katie]
Yeah.
[Rick]
So, you know, if you're shopping and if you're comparing, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Look into it.
Call Tish. Yeah. I know some designers who are members specifically for that reason, because the rates are so good.
They may not show up to the meetings, but they're in it for other reasons. And the investment makes sense to them.
[Katie]
I want to talk to Jennifer a minute, because all of this, we have cost savings. We're talking about not decreasing our marketing budget. But how we do marketing, I think, is so important.
It's not just about cutting costs. It's about maximizing what we are spending and making those marketing dollars work even harder for us. How are you doing that?
You're doing something interesting with storytelling.
[Jennifer]
So I find that people connect to you when you're your authentic self. I'm going to be as vulnerable as possible while sharing my experiences, because I noticed during my conference last year in November, because I normally have an annual conference, a blueprint conference, right? And that was the first time I was having a conference.
And the theme was design and wellness. But during the conference, as I shared my struggles and things, I was going through, I noticed that people broke down crying. And it was liberating.
It was also very good to see that lots of people were going through challenges. They just didn't know who to talk to. So there was this connection, right?
So I just realized that the only way we can actually help ourselves is to be true to ourselves and be vulnerable when you want to share, especially if you're a coach and everything, and let people know that the same struggles you're going through. I also went through the struggles or I'm going through the same struggles and we all can come together to make it happen. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, it's our industry, right?
So we all need to come together. And for me, it's going to be all about sharing my journey, how far I've come, my struggles, especially because most times I think people just see the good side. And I actually go through a lot.
So I will be sharing the challenges and the struggles so people can connect and know that I'm also human. I also have my down times. I also lose money.
I have my emotions. I also have times when I'm looking for clients. I also have times when it's just crazy, right?
So even if I appear to be very, very all put together, sometimes I'm not put together. So I'm going to share a lot this year because I'm hoping that most important is to just start again. So there'll be lots of storytelling from how I started my whole journey.
Yes.
[Katie]
You know, that's interesting because it goes back to this idea of community. And you just touched on it, Rick. Whether it's ideas, don't cancel those memberships.
Go get that unity. Do those collaborations. Figure out how you can partner.
And you said it to Jennifer. It's not competition. It's collaboration.
I think that's everything as we move forward. Right. Like as Michelle Lynn loves to say, there's plenty of ugly houses for everybody.
Like it's true, right? There's plenty of homes that need window treatments for everybody out there. But like the idea of creating that community or even what you said, Lou, about going back in the Rolodex, finding the people that were a part of your life and bringing them back into the fold and building those relationships.
It's interesting. All of you are touching on that in a very unique way when we know all the science shows people are lonelier than they have ever been. And if you think that's just you sitting in your car driving to pick kids up from school or whatever you're doing, listening to this, it's not.
It's like quantifiable and systemic. And I would even say, can we say global about that, Jennifer? Do you see that?
[Jennifer]
Yeah, I think it is global because I don't know why, but I just feel interior design is a profession that is just unique, right? Because you're going through so many emotions. You're the project manager.
You're the driver. You're the accountant. You have so many things in one.
And you still have to juggle with family, friends, relationship and stuff like that. So I think it's a whole lot. And sometimes if you don't have that support, you just might lose it.
Right. So and I also find that most interior designers who do fantastic jobs are hiding behind something. They put all the energy into the work.
But when you dig deeper, they might be going through challenges. Maybe it could be marriage. It could be their kids.
It could be something else. So it's a way it's an outlet for them. So it's work, right?
So you just see them and like, oh, she's so good with her work. She's perfect. She's this, she's that.
But she's actually hiding from something. So I just feel that we need to connect to ourselves and be true to ourself and just know that it's OK to be human.
[Katie]
Well, and that's so valuable because your clients will feel that. And clients read that. And then they feel like they can be real with you.
And then you can give them what they love because you understand who they really are. And that's invaluable. For sure.
[Rick]
Yeah.
[Katie]
Rick, if you were to pick the big message for the designers that are listening to this for 2025, and you can change this when we do the Q2 to the table, I'm not going to hold you to this for the next three quarters. But sitting here out of the gate in Q1, what would it be?
[Rick]
I touched on it earlier, but really just focusing on the client experience. It's so important. And it really is a differentiating factor when it comes to your business and how it sets you apart from everyone else.
I think that, you know, designers need to kind of like shut down all the noise. And I think I had even said this last time when we were talking about the economy and it trickles down to every part of your business, just really being true to yourself, you know, to Jennifer's point. You know, it is kind of an isolating industry sometimes.
And you asked about, can we say it's global? Yeah, I think we can say it's global because, listen, last year I spoke at a summit in London, which we're doing again this year and Luann's coming with us. And it was the first time they had ever done a summit in London for interior designers.
And the organizers were not sure if it was going to fly. And I'm here to tell you, people showed up and they could not wait to experience that community aspect. You know, they hear about us doing it in the States and they want it over there.
So it's so important.
[Katie]
I'm thinking of the noise volume in the high point market lobby when you come in, Paring Market. And it is, it's just, you could just hear the buzz, right?
[LuAnn]
The energy, right? Yeah.
[Katie]
It is because I think, you know, you sit here and you design, even if you have a firm and you have people and you're doing all the things, it's so nice to get out there and go, oh, wait, there's more. There's other people doing this, too, and struggling and fighting the battles and figuring out how are we going to do our budgets for 2025? What is marketing going to look like?
Where am I going to find the fat to cut if I don't even feel like there is fat? Right, Luann, I love what you said. And I know in the consumer world, there's a way to audit all your subscriptions and there's programs that do this and let you know what you're subscribing to.
That is such a golden nugget to sit down and get your arms around your financials. If you're listening to this and you're like, I don't even know what software I got. Well, it's time to pick up the phone and call your bookkeeper or text them or Slack them or do whatever you do, Voxer and find them and ask them to provide you with that list.
That is such an incredible nugget of look at where your money is being spent and do it wisely. What would be your word of encouragement, Lu, to designers out there?
[LuAnn]
I think that what I'm seeing now is more with so many designers started their business right around COVID. So they're hitting their five year anniversary at some point this year. And so the thing is, is that this last five, six months and the uncertainty of 2025, it's like the first little bump in the road, because if you started in COVID, like you started, it took off.
You're remotely competent and you had work, right? And so what I'm finding is that business owners that don't have a body of experience of being a business owner beyond six years are like, oh, that's not good. You know, and it's kind of like tripping them a little.
It's like, oh, the pipeline isn't full. And it's been six months since the pipeline is full. And of course, there are a lot of designers that have a full pipeline.
But I think that it goes back to marketing. Right. And so my thing is, when I've talked to some of these designers that are like, this is crazy.
I don't have as much lined up for the 25 at this point that I did at this point a year ago, or I'm giving out proposals, but more people are saying not now as opposed to a year or two years ago. And my thing is, do all the things that we're saying, collaborate, get community, you know, watch your line item expenses. But this is business, folks.
Buckle up. It's going to have highs. It's going to have lows.
And like what I said, started with it, WindowWorks, you know, we're not like, well, that's it. The party's over. It's like, no, we've got to mitigate what is clearly in front of us, an extreme, you know, increase in operational expenses with a minor increase in revenue.
So you can't get frozen by it. You got to act and you got to move. But don't be surprised that business isn't as easy or as effortless as it was four years ago.
Like you're going to have a 25, 30 year career. You know, you're going to have recessions. You're going to have all kinds of crazy crap happen.
And you got to be resilient. You got to stand up and you got to look at your data and you got to analyze it and you got to figure out what's the path through, not just why is this happening. And so I would say the encouragement is if you're feeling softer in your leads or softer in your proposals or lower in the volume or all the things, then get up and go make something happen.
[Katie]
It's business. It is business. It's an endurance game.
And as you're saying this, I'm even thinking this is why we have a reserve account for the firm. If you don't have a personal savings account, that's one thing. But you don't have a savings account for your business.
That's another. Because these days are going to happen and you don't want to be put out of business.
[LuAnn]
And, you know, it's funny because that was part of the conversation. It was like, well, how much is sitting in the reserve account? Like literally.
And we're like, well, we're this far into that and we're that far into the credit line. And it's like, oh, OK, so this is a Mach one problem. Like we got to deal with this.
This isn't like, well, it's all sitting there. It's like we've been pulling at it for the last six months. But again, we're not waking up a year and a half from now broke going, what happened?
So I just feel like the message is we've had a tremendous upswing in the residential decor industry. And this past year, it's been a little wonky. And we don't know what 2025 is, but do something about it.
Don't just say, I can't believe it.
[Katie]
I think that's a great point. There's two things that come to mind. One, I love what Jennifer said about figure out who you are.
If you enjoyed the upswing and you're like, yeah, but this whole business owner thing for me is not my happy place. Back to Jennifer's happy place. There is no shame in your game to going back to doing what you loved or finding something new that is what you love.
You are not a failure. That is a wicked success because it means you have figured it out and you're going to go crack the next nut. And that is so incredibly important.
If you're hearing this, you're like this whole business owner thing. This just scares the everloving bejeebies out of me. And I'm out like I'm not here for this rainy day stuff.
That's OK. And I think, too, if you're sitting here and you're like, I want to do this, but I don't know how. Look at Rick.
Rick's a coach who has a coach. Find a coach who has a coach. I mean, my gosh, all of us on this call coach.
Like there is somebody you will find who can help you. And there is no shame in the game of sticking up your hand and saying, help, help, help. Yeah, we do it with each other all the time.
Oh, Vox or Luann and say, Luke, what do you think about this? Help like you will die in isolation, literally and figuratively. So don't be afraid when it comes to your business or who you are to reach out and figure out who and how you move forward.
I think it's so important. This has been a great conversation. I couldn't have asked for more.
I hope this encourages all of you. I hope this is real for all of you. And thank you to our guests.
This is the best group of people I want to bring you to sit at this table quarterly and say, where are we at in our industry? What are they doing? So you don't feel alone.
You don't feel isolated. And you go, I'm not failing. Well, there's plenty of people out here and we're all figuring it out together.
So thank you for pulling up a chair and joining us to Rick, to Jennifer, to Luann and to you. Thank you. And what a great conversation.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the coaching corner. And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you coming off of the conversation for the table this quarter. So long story short, I was working with a coaching client this week and she said to me, Katie, I am a seasoned investor.
She's out of the Bay Area. She said, I have never not had a pipeline. And I said, well, what are we doing for marketing?
We talked about your target demographic. Where are we at? She goes, I know my target demographic.
I know who I need to see. I'm not doing any marketing. And that right there, I responded right back with, that's why you don't have a pipeline.
In good times, you should be doing marketing. In bad times, you should absolutely be doing marketing. And you've heard me reference Harvey McKay repeatedly.
But dig your well before you're thirsty. It's a great book from many decades ago. But the time to realize that you need to spend marketing dollars is not when you go, oh, where did my pipeline go?
It's when business is good. Put that money away for a rainy day and figure out where your target market is and start digging that well before you're thirsty. If you want to know how to do it, join me on a strategy session.
It is our premium channel. I'm super excited to provide you with actionable steps of what this actually looks like. It's the cost of a latte a month.
And we will get you started on the path to figuring out how to make sure you're not sitting there going, where is my pipeline? And that's the closing bell. I hope you've gathered valuable insight from our conversation today, equipping you to thrive in your interior design business.
Don't forget to hit that follow button to never miss an episode. And if you have burning questions or specific topics you're curious about, explore our episode library or better yet, book a strategy session directly with me at colorworks.coach. Until next time, see you in the studio. It's our virtual community.
And the link is below.
Meet Katie, a dynamic PODCAST host and successful entrepreneur.
Former news anchor turned leader of a multimillion-dollar design firm, Katie's passion lies in uncovering brilliance and sharing design and business secrets. Her insatiable curiosity, honed in the media spotlight, fuels enlightening conversations on her podcast, offering a platform for wisdom-seeking design enthusiasts and aspiring entrepreneurs.
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Finances & Marketing for Interior Designers in 2025 [The Table]
If you’re feeling like cancelling your subscription to 2025, hold the phone! Between the natural disasters, shifty political landscapes, and inflation rates that just seem to keep going up up up—it’s feeling like a lot. For all of us. No matter how big or small, new or experienced, or even where in the world your interior design business is located, we’re all feeling the financial impact. So let’s talk about it!
LuAnn Nigara, Rick Campos, and Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe join me for an incredibly transparent conversation about what’s changing for their budgeting and marketing in 2025. Tune in to hear what these experts’ 2024 reviews revealed and how they’re applying those findings to each of their businesses. From leaning into unique marketing strategies, to engaging new and existing communities, to looking for economies of scale—there’s no stone left unturned! And of course, the conversation continues in this week’s Coaching Corner. Let’s dive in!
In this episode, we cover:
How inflation is impacting interior design firms in 2025
The one area of your business to not pull back investing in
Where to focus your efforts so you attract your most ideal clients
How to generate more income while doing what you love
Unique organic marketing strategies for interior designers to consider
The best way to engage your community and maintain impact while marketing
A huge tech trap you can easily avoid this year
The impact authenticity has on growing your interior design business
Where to look for economies of scale to get the biggest ROI without sacrificing quality
I hope this conversation with these interior design experts encourages you! These quarterly conversations are meant to give you a sneak peek into where we’re at as an industry, what’s working, what’s not, and to be reminded you’re not alone in this. We’re all here figuring this thing out together.
There is someone who can help you—and no shame in the game of sticking up your hand and asking for support to figure out how to best move forward. Whether you contact us on social to share your thoughts from this conversation or to ask for that coaching support, we’d love to hear from you!
More About LuAnn Nigara
LuAnn is a celebrated media personality, energetic keynote speaker, and seasoned entrepreneur—with key roles in the partnership team behind both Window Works and Exciting Windows! Known for her dynamic and energetic presentations, LuAnn has been recognized as the “go-to” keynote speaker for leaders and entrepreneurs to launch their life and get out of their own way. She’s captured international attention for A Well-Designed Business®—a podcast with more than 1,000 episodes and over 8 million downloads!
More About Rick Campos
Rick is a self proclaimed recovering interior designer, podcast host, and design business coach. He's on a mission to support and elevate the interior design community, having held thousands of conversations with designers and industry experts about the business of design. Rick leverages these lessons and generous advice from his peers to inform and empower design entrepreneurs across the globe to build stronger, more profitable businesses.
More About Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe
Doctor Jennifer brings a global perspective from Nigeria with her multifaceted expertise. As an interior designer, coach, and author, she's dedicated to helping professionals, entrepreneurs, and interior designers thrive in their spaces, their lives, and their businesses through design. With her extensive knowledge and experience, she has successfully taught over 800 interior designers how to build, grow, and scale their businesses while maintaining profitability.
Links and Mentioned Resources
Connect with LuAnn Nigara
Connect with Rick Campos
Connect with Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe
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Business Coaching for Interior Designers
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More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design
As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship.
This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and the creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm.
Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows
[Katie]
Do you love interior design but can't make the business side work? You've come to the right place. Welcome to Success by Design, mastering the business of interior design.
Whether you want to elevate in your current interior design firm, start your own firm, or move the needle when it comes to your existing firm's trajectory, this is your masterclass and I'm your host, Katie Erickson. Learn from my mistakes as I built a coast-to-coast multi-million dollar interior design firm. I share nearly 20 years of serving as a university professor of undergraduate and graduate business courses with you.
And best of all, I bring in experts in all things business and interior design. Class starts now. Hey everyone, welcome to the table.
We are back at it again. Can you believe it is already Q1 of 2025? Where did that time go?
As I saw a fabulous meme, it said, I took the trial subscription of the first 14 days and I'm canceling my subscription. So if you were feeling that way about your business, or if you're feeling that way about life, you've come to the right place because we're having conversation today. What are you changing up in 2025 when it comes to your finances and your marketing?
It's a big thing, especially as economics change. And as of this recording today, the Fed came out with their inflation number at 2.9%. What does that do to things? There's a lot of questions on the table, no pun intended.
And so that's why we brought in the experts. And so we have Rick and Jennifer and Luanne back. You know them from our first one, which is linked in the show notes.
And so welcome to the table again, everybody. Thank you very much. Hello.
It's so good to see you guys. Lu, I want to start with you because we kicked around this topic before we brought it up to Rick and Jennifer, but let's talk 2025 financials and marketing. It's a big deal, especially coming off of 2024.
What are you seeing from your perch on the branch?
[LuAnn]
Well, I mean, for me, a lot of what I evaluate is what's happening at WindowWorks because, you know, it's established business, it's multiple million dollar gross revenue. And so, you know, what's happening there, you know, informs us at EW, Exciting Windows and also at L&E. And interestingly, Vin and myself and my son-in-law, JC, had a pretty tough conversation right before we broke for the holiday break in that we increased revenue from 23 to 24, but operational expenses increased like 29 or 30 percent.
[Katie]
Inflation's real.
[LuAnn]
Yeah. And what happened was, of course, as a functioning, smart business person, you have to think, were we just blowing money? Were we not watching things?
And you have Nagara on the team and he's a lunatic. And he went line by line by line. And he was saying to JC and I that a big chunk of it was insurance, like insurances increased, like I want to say, by 22 or 28 percent.
But it was like disheartening because you sold more, but you earned less money and you didn't earn less money because you made mistakes or because you screwed around with your own profit margin, but because operational expenses just went out of the gigigy. And so then the next conversation was, well, what do we do? Like, you can't reduce insurances.
Like, you can shop around and we did, but you can't be like, that's it. No truck insurance. That's it.
No health insurance. Like, you stranglehold it on it. And so we got to pull it from other places.
So it's a very healthy marketing budget at Window Works. You know, it's a six figure marketing budget. I don't know if it's at one hundred and ten or one hundred and fifty, but you don't pull back marketing that's working.
[Katie]
OK, can you just say that one more time? Because that's where people automatically go is like the market's down. Let's cut marketing.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Last category, please.
[LuAnn]
Yes. So that is the dilemma, though, like marketing that's working. You don't pull back.
So our marketing worked in that we increased revenue last year. But it's like one of the few line items that you can do something about, like you can look in January and go instead of spending 150, let's spend 120 and that'll make up for the thirty thousand dollar increase in insurance. And so it was a hot conversation, not heated, but just like a tough one.
We're just like, well, if we pull back the marketing like then, well, we have less revenue and higher expenses at the end of twenty twenty five. And so I can't tell you we got it figured out yet. I can tell you that for right now, we're trying to explore more high touch organic ways to maybe impact some marketing without really reducing that number.
But, you know, we're going to have to rob Peter to pay Paul somewhere. You can't have a 30 percent, 25 percent increase in expenses and a 16 percent increase in revenue and think that this business will survive if we do nothing for five years, if we continue to spend higher percentage on operational and lower percentage on growth. That's not a healthy business.
That's a business at five years. You're like, why aren't any of us making any money? So we're trying to deal with it now.
But it is not an easy dilemma.
[Katie]
And I really appreciate your transparency and honesty, because I think there's probably a lot of listeners that are sitting out there and going, I did everything I was supposed to. Why isn't this going the way that I want? And to hear that from someone like Louie and then you're like, oh, it's not just me.
OK, thank you so much. I'm not failing. No, you are not failing.
Rick, are you seeing this in your coaching clients? Like what are you seeing them change up when it comes to their marketing and visibility?
[Rick]
I think right now what I'm seeing a lot of both for myself and through my coaching clients is really this heightened interest in that visibility and really kind of focusing on their messaging and being very intentional about the projects that they're trying to attract and the clients that are right for them, the clients that are actually profitable. So all of the designers that I'm working with, they've got great projects. Some of them have more than they probably need or want.
So they're in a place where they're having to now make a decision. I need to narrow this lane. I need to be more selective.
I get to start saying no. I know not every designer is in that position, but a lot of them are. And that is really driven by your messaging.
So I want to say like three out of the five coaching clients that I've worked with last quarter, all were focusing on revamping their website. So much so even I'm revamping my website. So four of us simultaneously are revamping websites because as I was working with them, I've started saying maybe I should take my own advice and kind of freshen things up, fine tune my messaging, be more specific, ask for the things that I want, tell and inform people the services that I provide.
So I've spent a lot of time with designers talking about messaging and really dialing that in, amping up their SEO, because listen, we're competing with so many other designers and I don't like the word competition, but you know what I mean when I say it, especially in Orange County, you can't throw a rock without hitting another designer. So everyone is trying to kind of establish that differentiating factor. And in order to do that, you really have to be honed in on your messaging and your intention and the services that you want to provide to attract the clients that you want to service.
[Katie]
Well, and that's one thing we've talked about, too, is that classic idea of lonely work. If the market is down and you're not turning away your projects and you have a hot minute, I don't want to say this, but yeah, you don't have a hot minute because that means there's work for you to do, laying the foundation once again so that when you have the time to shine and that dream client does come forward, you're positioned for success. This is what I love to coach, too.
It's not to say that you're twitchy, but a little bit, right? Like if it's quiet, I'm like, why is it quiet and what should I be doing? Something isn't right.
It's a lot like parenting. Like if it's quiet, something's wrong and we should fix it. I want to talk to Jennifer because last time she was on the table and was great about reminding me of this, we were talking about balance.
And Jennifer, your goal, as I recall, for 2025 was let's get some work-life balance in here. Let's figure out how we're going to do this well in 2025. And by well, we mean sustainable and not that rabid squirrel straddling a barbed wire fence.
Right. So what does this look like for you and what have you changed in your marketing approach, knowing that you might have a different goal than growth? Maybe it's more on the personal growth side of things.
[Jennifer]
So for me this year, I'm more focused on what I love. Right. It's also stemmed from the work-life balance.
So what do I love? I love to teach. I had to look at the revenue streams from last year and most of it came from coaching and teaching.
And I had to ask myself, do I see myself on a construction site, on a site at 50, 60? I don't think so. So I'm tending towards things that I love and I want to now invest more time and energy doing what I love.
So it doesn't feel like work. Right. So for us this year, we are positioning our interior design school to like an air tech kind of situation.
So more technology driven because I also have a master's in IT. So I'm like, OK, I love interior design. I love IT.
But I just figured it would just make more sense to just do what I love and generate more income from what I love. So, yeah. So this year we're focusing more on visibility in terms of the school.
Not to sound proud, I always say we don't have competition in Nigeria in terms of the school because I'm one of the pioneers. Right. So I want to position globally now.
I think we've set the tone. So we want to create more visibility globally and see how we can expand our training to West African countries, East Africa, South Africa and see how we can do it globally. So for me, it's more education, visibility and see how we can spread.
So all our marketing will be going towards that to create visibility. Yeah.
[Katie]
But there's such a nugget in there that you looked at your profits. Where are you making money? Then it's coupled with this is what I love anyway.
Yeah. That's a good niche to march into. Something you love that makes money.
Yeah. Done.
[Jennifer]
And they can still be work-life balance. Yeah.
[Katie]
That's a smart lady. That's a smart lady. Well said, Lou.
So Lou, going back to what you mentioned, you talked about organic marketing when you're looking at spending your budget in 2025. What does that mean to you? What are you teasing out and what are you finding that is unique and maybe not something that would be top of consciousness to our audience?
[LuAnn]
Well, for the interior side, so there's different strategies. This one applies to both, I guess, but primarily to the interior side of the WindowWorks business is we're looking like, look, I developed a designer business starting in 1984 for a very specific reason. I can see three people a day or I can have also in partnership 10 designers that are also seeing three people a day.
And so our designer business at WindowWorks is healthy. But the thing is that every business owner needs to adjust, especially when you hit some stride. Right.
So in the beginning, startup mode, it's a do that. Right. But when you hit stride, whether that's five years or 40 years like us, you have to just go, hey, did we stop doing the things?
Did we stop doing some of the things that work? And so to Jennifer's point on the interior side, I would rather strengthen and reframe and go deeper into 15 existing designer accounts, trying and root out 15 more than worry about placing an ad in a regional magazine to hit 20,000 consumers that 18,000 of them aren't going to see the ad and 200 of them need window treatments. And so it's the type of thing where this is the business that keeps giving.
So we're going to look on all fronts, like what are we doing intentionally to cultivate new designers? What are we doing intentionally to pay back and give back and acknowledge the designers that are giving business every day? And then what are we doing to intentionally uplevel the quality that we deliver to a designer so that the designers like that was good is like, no, no, no, no, no.
That was better than anything I've ever been through. I got to keep going to Window Works because I just said it's like our best shot at big impact. You know, if I can bring 10 new designers in here, that could be a half a million dollars.
[Katie]
Yeah, that's huge.
[LuAnn]
You know, it could be 50,000, 10 could each give me a $5,000 order. But it's the biggest shot at impact that I'm not spending dollar bills on. So if I have to pull it back from the marketing budget to pay for the stupid insurance.
Yeah, I love that you were talking that.
[Katie]
Yeah.
[LuAnn]
I mean, the line items on a larger business are ridiculous. You know, like per person insurance is up to like 20, 25K a person. You got a management team of five people.
[Katie]
Well, all insurance. I mean, I'm thinking about all of our designers that are in L.A. right now and everything that they're going through and that whole area and the massive amount of devastation and like insurance rates. I mean, there was a great article, I believe it was also in The Wall Street Journal talking about like who's going to pay for this.
We're all going to pay for this. Like the money has to come from somewhere for these billions of dollars. And I don't think we're done playing the insurance game, whether it's health insurance, professional liability.
I mean, it goes on and on. I think we're going to be here for a really hot minute.
[LuAnn]
And you know what? Before we switch to another topic with these guys, I just want to say like the analogy to a designer listening. OK, so I'm going to lean into my designer business over here and we're going to try and do that.
But a designer listening, it's like I tell the chairman of the board clients I have all the time. I'm like, we're going to go back. I want to go back three years, five years, whatever it is.
You have a CRM. Great. If you don't go pull the records out of the post-it boxes, but go identify, you know, all the clients for the previous three years.
Then which one said I eventually want to do a kitchen? I eventually want to do this. So like I'm going back deep into my designer accounts here.
You go back into your consumer accounts. So Sally Smith, you finished a project two years ago and she didn't say she had something to do, but you kind of got friendly with Sally Smith. And you know that this spring her child is graduating middle school, high school, college.
Send something.
[Katie]
Yes.
[LuAnn]
Thinking about you. It's been a couple of years since I saw you. And I just realized, you know, Susie is graduating high school.
What are her plans for the summer or the fall?
[Katie]
Nurture. You have to nurture.
[LuAnn]
Organic marketing is creative and designers should be good at that.
[Katie]
They should be. Nurture and dance with the one that brung you. It's an old Harvey McKay book, right?
But like these are the people that are already there. I literally coached a designer on this yesterday. She's like, I'm so excited.
I'm going to do half page ads. They're $400 a pop. And then fast forward 30 minutes into the conversation and she goes, OK, so I had this client and I brought in the painter.
It didn't work out the way I wanted to. Long story short, we owe the painter 500 bucks. Should I split it with the client?
And I'm like, is this the last taste in her mouth she's going to have from you? No, no. This is way cheaper than buying a half page ad, praying something sticks.
Keep her happy.
[Jennifer]
Write the check.
[Katie]
And I'm like, and then write her a note and say, this didn't go the way we wanted to. This is not your responsibility. I've written a check to the painter and I look forward to our next project together.
That's what you do to take care of the people that brung you, so to speak. Like nurture, nurture, nurture, create those nurture sequence. Along with nurturing comes community.
And Rick, how are you engaging with community when it comes to your marketing efforts in 2025? Because you have some things going down.
[Rick]
Yeah, I think that my approach is kind of an extension of what Luann was talking about, about the quality over quantity. And from my perspective as a business person, I, too, am looking at the things that work and worked really well and then doubling down on those things. So, for example, my retreats that I do every year, they're getting bigger, they're getting better.
But the number of people is not increasing. I'm keeping that small. And people are saying, why do you keep it so small?
It's because of the impact. I love that. You know, if I grow it bigger, I'm afraid I'm going to lose steam on that impact.
And that kind of translate to many businesses, including design. We have to always be looking for ways to improve the impact that we're having on our clients. You were just saying, and I say this all the time.
You know, our clients won't remember everything that we did and everything that we said, but they'll remember how we made them feel. And I've spent the last two years talking about the client experience in all different facets. I've recreated a presentation a half a dozen times on it.
And finally, I just invested in a coaching program over the holidays by Will Godara based on the book Unreasonable Hospitality, which is the book that I gather this information from a reference constantly in my presentations. And so now I'm like, I'm doing what I tell my clients to do. Go out there, get more education, learn more and create something that's going to be more impactful.
And so now I'm able to speak to designers more formally and more structured about all of the touch points of their business, the impact that moments have on the client experience and those type of things. So community really is about supporting each other, inspiring each other. And I plan on kind of leveraging the community, really the design community, to kind of get this information out there to everyone.
[Katie]
Makes complete sense. And Jennifer, you're collaborating. This is interesting, the themes that are coming out of this as far as collaboration and nurture.
There's some very strong words coming to mind. You're doing your own set of partnerships and collaborations as you look to grow even on a global scene, really.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So for me, collaboration is the new competition. Right.
So it doesn't make sense trying to do everything yourself anymore.
[Katie]
You can say that again.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. Yeah. I've gotten to the point where I'm like, Jennifer, you know, you don't have to solve all the problems yourself.
You can actually partner with someone.
[Katie]
That's why I have you all sitting here at the table. I'm not doing this on my own. I want to hear from you.
Yes.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So it just makes it easier. Right.
And by collaborating, you also see that you're learning from each other. You're growing together. You're making mistakes together.
And that's just the best way to go about it. So this year, especially with the global partnerships, definitely. Don't be surprised if you see me coming up on YouTube.
Don't be surprised if you see me doing a TV show or a podcast. Don't be surprised if I call you guys to come do a podcast with me.
[LuAnn]
There's nothing that you would say or do that would surprise me, actually.
[Jennifer]
Not at this point. Because I also like to talk, right? So I just figured that, OK, leverage on the things that you love.
Talking is one of the things that you love. You love to talk. You love to teach.
Yes. Why not just to have fun? And if it's global, that means I can be at my house and I'm just having fun and I'm teaching and I'm loving what I do.
So collaboration for me is the next thing. Even for my school, I just decided that if I was going to even partner with someone, I could think about a franchise model, right? For African countries.
So I don't necessarily need to go to Ghana or Ceylon or another African country to open a school. Right. So I could franchise it, right.
And just make money.
[Katie]
And I love it.
[Jennifer]
Yeah. So for me, it's all about collaborations this year.
[Katie]
I agree. And that's what Lou was saying, too. It's the economies of scale, right?
Like that's a big thing coming out of this. Economies of scale and knowing when not to economize as well. To Rick's point, you don't want to compromise that quality.
Could you blow up your seminars? Like you said, absolutely. But I lose the quality.
That is a delicate balance. Like where can we economize? Don't cut your marketing.
Right. We've talked about that. But where can you get these economies of scale?
So you get the biggest bang for your buck or the biggest return on investment that ROI we talk about while not compromising on quality. And I think that's the heart of what we're looking at in 2025. Like you're going to get that when you nurture those relationships.
[Rick]
That's perfectly said, Katie. And I hope every designer listening really kind of wrote that down because it applies to all businesses, especially interior design businesses.
[Katie]
Lou, thank you, Rick. I want to talk financials. What is the biggest financial change and shift that you're making if we're not cutting marketing?
And yes, if you haven't written that one down yet, we got to write that down. Don't cut your marketing. Don't cut your marketing.
Don't cut your marketing. What are we cutting? I love what you said about shopping insurance.
Yeah. First of all, if you don't have insurance, that's a whole nother conversation. Right.
But can you look at existing expenses and shop them? Are there any other categories you're looking at that you're like, we need to shop this because this went up 30 percent last year and we're not going to accept that?
[LuAnn]
Yes. I mean, and I think no matter what your business model is, like on the podcast, I found out that I was spending 20K with the podcasting host that I was using for a feature that I was under the impression that I needed to spend extra money for. And then I talked to my friend Katie Kramitzos, who has a podcast that does over a million downloads every day of the week.
And yeah, it's not. And she's like, no, Lou, don't use that platform. Use this one.
I was like, wait, what? And so, you know, in twenty twenty four, I saved this business, L.N. Inc., like seventeen thousand dollars, you know, with one looking at a line item and reaching out to somebody. And I basically called her.
I'm like, Katie, I know that your business model can afford it. But is this right? Right.
And so it's like with with WindowWorks, it's line by line item. And we do a tech audit. I think a smaller business like Lou Anna Gara Inc.
is or designers businesses. You can get in the trap of, you know, you signed up for this tech and you're not using it. It's like the gym membership, like where you just sign up and you stop going and nobody knows.
You know, like we signed up for Hoppy Copy last year. I was so in love with Hoppy Copy for like a hot six months. And of course, if I really think I'm going to use something, it's going to be good.
I'll be like, what's the per month rate and what's the pay in full rate for the year? And if it's a significant difference, I'm like, pay it in full. Go do it.
Right. And so the pay in full rate was a good difference and we paid it. But then I found the paid version of Chachi BT.
I didn't need Hoppy Copy anymore. And so I didn't want to wait and I paid for it. But the Hoppy Copy, I'm like, you have to make sure that is on off because a smaller design firm will just find themselves with anywhere from two or three hundred dollars a month to maybe just a thousand a year.
But it's your thousand dollars. And if your business is grossing one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, do you want to not have three or four thousand dollars because you're just not even paying attention? And it's hard not to pay attention because you're usually by yourself.
So and making the spreadsheet of what it is. So the thing is, whether it's a big business like Window Works or it's a little business, you've got to just get your QuickBooks out. Go line by line.
We have been with the same insurance company for forty two years. Vinny was like, no, we're shopping it. And then the other thing we do is we pay as much as we can on the cash back cards.
Yes. And the different cards that at the end of the year, you're like, give me a check back for four K. Thank you.
So the thing is, there's nothing sexy. There's nothing earth shattering. It's the same old, same old good business practices.
[Katie]
But so many don't do it. I totally agree with you. And you have so many nuggets in there starting with the cash back card.
Get a cash back card, pay it off every month. They give us so many thousands of dollars to swipe. And I'm like, really, are you making money on this?
Because we pay it every month. But it's so great. And here's the thing.
If you're one of those smaller business owners, they send you a check that is sent to you personally. But you don't have to pay business taxes. Taxes are free money, free money.
If you're leaving that on the table. I personally like the Capital One two percent unlimited cash back myself. That's my personal favorite at the moment.
Plug. Totally. I'll put it in the show notes.
You can click the link.
[Rick]
But sponsorships available.
[Katie]
Sponsorships, thank you Rick. But it's no limit, no categories. I'm like, you're going to pay me to swipe this.
Why would I not be doing that? And to your point about being with your insurance provider for 42 years, if you think you're loyal to them, they are not loyal to you. I just got the notice that our current policyholder and we have had zero claims, but they're canceling our professional liability effective at the end of January.
They just arbitrarily decided that, like, we won't be renewing it. I'm like, what do you mean? I paid you.
I've had no problems. Like we've had zero claims, zero problems. What's the deal?
I don't know. Some algorithm said you're denied. So we had to go shop again.
So if they're busy shopping you, you should be shopping them every single year, no matter how much you like them.
[LuAnn]
Yeah, we want to work with somebody who makes mistakes and every day in their business and we can make money off of them. Right?
[Katie]
Yeah. Saying that.
[LuAnn]
Yes, Rick.
[Rick]
Can I just chime in here for a second since we're on this topic? You know, anybody that is a member of a professional organization like ASID, NKBA, IDS, first of all, that's a great example of an annual membership that you may be paying and not utilizing. So shame on you.
Start going to your meetings. Don't cancel it. Dig deeper, log in and understand all the benefits aside from just like the monthly meetings and the networking opportunities that are out there.
Listen, IDS has a group insurance policy, a liability insurance policy at a discounted rate for members. They have access to health insurance for members.
[Katie]
Yeah.
[Rick]
So, you know, if you're shopping and if you're comparing, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Look into it.
Call Tish. Yeah. I know some designers who are members specifically for that reason, because the rates are so good.
They may not show up to the meetings, but they're in it for other reasons. And the investment makes sense to them.
[Katie]
I want to talk to Jennifer a minute, because all of this, we have cost savings. We're talking about not decreasing our marketing budget. But how we do marketing, I think, is so important.
It's not just about cutting costs. It's about maximizing what we are spending and making those marketing dollars work even harder for us. How are you doing that?
You're doing something interesting with storytelling.
[Jennifer]
So I find that people connect to you when you're your authentic self. I'm going to be as vulnerable as possible while sharing my experiences, because I noticed during my conference last year in November, because I normally have an annual conference, a blueprint conference, right? And that was the first time I was having a conference.
And the theme was design and wellness. But during the conference, as I shared my struggles and things, I was going through, I noticed that people broke down crying. And it was liberating.
It was also very good to see that lots of people were going through challenges. They just didn't know who to talk to. So there was this connection, right?
So I just realized that the only way we can actually help ourselves is to be true to ourselves and be vulnerable when you want to share, especially if you're a coach and everything, and let people know that the same struggles you're going through. I also went through the struggles or I'm going through the same struggles and we all can come together to make it happen. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, it's our industry, right?
So we all need to come together. And for me, it's going to be all about sharing my journey, how far I've come, my struggles, especially because most times I think people just see the good side. And I actually go through a lot.
So I will be sharing the challenges and the struggles so people can connect and know that I'm also human. I also have my down times. I also lose money.
I have my emotions. I also have times when I'm looking for clients. I also have times when it's just crazy, right?
So even if I appear to be very, very all put together, sometimes I'm not put together. So I'm going to share a lot this year because I'm hoping that most important is to just start again. So there'll be lots of storytelling from how I started my whole journey.
Yes.
[Katie]
You know, that's interesting because it goes back to this idea of community. And you just touched on it, Rick. Whether it's ideas, don't cancel those memberships.
Go get that unity. Do those collaborations. Figure out how you can partner.
And you said it to Jennifer. It's not competition. It's collaboration.
I think that's everything as we move forward. Right. Like as Michelle Lynn loves to say, there's plenty of ugly houses for everybody.
Like it's true, right? There's plenty of homes that need window treatments for everybody out there. But like the idea of creating that community or even what you said, Lou, about going back in the Rolodex, finding the people that were a part of your life and bringing them back into the fold and building those relationships.
It's interesting. All of you are touching on that in a very unique way when we know all the science shows people are lonelier than they have ever been. And if you think that's just you sitting in your car driving to pick kids up from school or whatever you're doing, listening to this, it's not.
It's like quantifiable and systemic. And I would even say, can we say global about that, Jennifer? Do you see that?
[Jennifer]
Yeah, I think it is global because I don't know why, but I just feel interior design is a profession that is just unique, right? Because you're going through so many emotions. You're the project manager.
You're the driver. You're the accountant. You have so many things in one.
And you still have to juggle with family, friends, relationship and stuff like that. So I think it's a whole lot. And sometimes if you don't have that support, you just might lose it.
Right. So and I also find that most interior designers who do fantastic jobs are hiding behind something. They put all the energy into the work.
But when you dig deeper, they might be going through challenges. Maybe it could be marriage. It could be their kids.
It could be something else. So it's a way it's an outlet for them. So it's work, right?
So you just see them and like, oh, she's so good with her work. She's perfect. She's this, she's that.
But she's actually hiding from something. So I just feel that we need to connect to ourselves and be true to ourself and just know that it's OK to be human.
[Katie]
Well, and that's so valuable because your clients will feel that. And clients read that. And then they feel like they can be real with you.
And then you can give them what they love because you understand who they really are. And that's invaluable. For sure.
[Rick]
Yeah.
[Katie]
Rick, if you were to pick the big message for the designers that are listening to this for 2025, and you can change this when we do the Q2 to the table, I'm not going to hold you to this for the next three quarters. But sitting here out of the gate in Q1, what would it be?
[Rick]
I touched on it earlier, but really just focusing on the client experience. It's so important. And it really is a differentiating factor when it comes to your business and how it sets you apart from everyone else.
I think that, you know, designers need to kind of like shut down all the noise. And I think I had even said this last time when we were talking about the economy and it trickles down to every part of your business, just really being true to yourself, you know, to Jennifer's point. You know, it is kind of an isolating industry sometimes.
And you asked about, can we say it's global? Yeah, I think we can say it's global because, listen, last year I spoke at a summit in London, which we're doing again this year and Luann's coming with us. And it was the first time they had ever done a summit in London for interior designers.
And the organizers were not sure if it was going to fly. And I'm here to tell you, people showed up and they could not wait to experience that community aspect. You know, they hear about us doing it in the States and they want it over there.
So it's so important.
[Katie]
I'm thinking of the noise volume in the high point market lobby when you come in, Paring Market. And it is, it's just, you could just hear the buzz, right?
[LuAnn]
The energy, right? Yeah.
[Katie]
It is because I think, you know, you sit here and you design, even if you have a firm and you have people and you're doing all the things, it's so nice to get out there and go, oh, wait, there's more. There's other people doing this, too, and struggling and fighting the battles and figuring out how are we going to do our budgets for 2025? What is marketing going to look like?
Where am I going to find the fat to cut if I don't even feel like there is fat? Right, Luann, I love what you said. And I know in the consumer world, there's a way to audit all your subscriptions and there's programs that do this and let you know what you're subscribing to.
That is such a golden nugget to sit down and get your arms around your financials. If you're listening to this and you're like, I don't even know what software I got. Well, it's time to pick up the phone and call your bookkeeper or text them or Slack them or do whatever you do, Voxer and find them and ask them to provide you with that list.
That is such an incredible nugget of look at where your money is being spent and do it wisely. What would be your word of encouragement, Lu, to designers out there?
[LuAnn]
I think that what I'm seeing now is more with so many designers started their business right around COVID. So they're hitting their five year anniversary at some point this year. And so the thing is, is that this last five, six months and the uncertainty of 2025, it's like the first little bump in the road, because if you started in COVID, like you started, it took off.
You're remotely competent and you had work, right? And so what I'm finding is that business owners that don't have a body of experience of being a business owner beyond six years are like, oh, that's not good. You know, and it's kind of like tripping them a little.
It's like, oh, the pipeline isn't full. And it's been six months since the pipeline is full. And of course, there are a lot of designers that have a full pipeline.
But I think that it goes back to marketing. Right. And so my thing is, when I've talked to some of these designers that are like, this is crazy.
I don't have as much lined up for the 25 at this point that I did at this point a year ago, or I'm giving out proposals, but more people are saying not now as opposed to a year or two years ago. And my thing is, do all the things that we're saying, collaborate, get community, you know, watch your line item expenses. But this is business, folks.
Buckle up. It's going to have highs. It's going to have lows.
And like what I said, started with it, WindowWorks, you know, we're not like, well, that's it. The party's over. It's like, no, we've got to mitigate what is clearly in front of us, an extreme, you know, increase in operational expenses with a minor increase in revenue.
So you can't get frozen by it. You got to act and you got to move. But don't be surprised that business isn't as easy or as effortless as it was four years ago.
Like you're going to have a 25, 30 year career. You know, you're going to have recessions. You're going to have all kinds of crazy crap happen.
And you got to be resilient. You got to stand up and you got to look at your data and you got to analyze it and you got to figure out what's the path through, not just why is this happening. And so I would say the encouragement is if you're feeling softer in your leads or softer in your proposals or lower in the volume or all the things, then get up and go make something happen.
[Katie]
It's business. It is business. It's an endurance game.
And as you're saying this, I'm even thinking this is why we have a reserve account for the firm. If you don't have a personal savings account, that's one thing. But you don't have a savings account for your business.
That's another. Because these days are going to happen and you don't want to be put out of business.
[LuAnn]
And, you know, it's funny because that was part of the conversation. It was like, well, how much is sitting in the reserve account? Like literally.
And we're like, well, we're this far into that and we're that far into the credit line. And it's like, oh, OK, so this is a Mach one problem. Like we got to deal with this.
This isn't like, well, it's all sitting there. It's like we've been pulling at it for the last six months. But again, we're not waking up a year and a half from now broke going, what happened?
So I just feel like the message is we've had a tremendous upswing in the residential decor industry. And this past year, it's been a little wonky. And we don't know what 2025 is, but do something about it.
Don't just say, I can't believe it.
[Katie]
I think that's a great point. There's two things that come to mind. One, I love what Jennifer said about figure out who you are.
If you enjoyed the upswing and you're like, yeah, but this whole business owner thing for me is not my happy place. Back to Jennifer's happy place. There is no shame in your game to going back to doing what you loved or finding something new that is what you love.
You are not a failure. That is a wicked success because it means you have figured it out and you're going to go crack the next nut. And that is so incredibly important.
If you're hearing this, you're like this whole business owner thing. This just scares the everloving bejeebies out of me. And I'm out like I'm not here for this rainy day stuff.
That's OK. And I think, too, if you're sitting here and you're like, I want to do this, but I don't know how. Look at Rick.
Rick's a coach who has a coach. Find a coach who has a coach. I mean, my gosh, all of us on this call coach.
Like there is somebody you will find who can help you. And there is no shame in the game of sticking up your hand and saying, help, help, help. Yeah, we do it with each other all the time.
Oh, Vox or Luann and say, Luke, what do you think about this? Help like you will die in isolation, literally and figuratively. So don't be afraid when it comes to your business or who you are to reach out and figure out who and how you move forward.
I think it's so important. This has been a great conversation. I couldn't have asked for more.
I hope this encourages all of you. I hope this is real for all of you. And thank you to our guests.
This is the best group of people I want to bring you to sit at this table quarterly and say, where are we at in our industry? What are they doing? So you don't feel alone.
You don't feel isolated. And you go, I'm not failing. Well, there's plenty of people out here and we're all figuring it out together.
So thank you for pulling up a chair and joining us to Rick, to Jennifer, to Luann and to you. Thank you. And what a great conversation.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the coaching corner. And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you coming off of the conversation for the table this quarter. So long story short, I was working with a coaching client this week and she said to me, Katie, I am a seasoned investor.
She's out of the Bay Area. She said, I have never not had a pipeline. And I said, well, what are we doing for marketing?
We talked about your target demographic. Where are we at? She goes, I know my target demographic.
I know who I need to see. I'm not doing any marketing. And that right there, I responded right back with, that's why you don't have a pipeline.
In good times, you should be doing marketing. In bad times, you should absolutely be doing marketing. And you've heard me reference Harvey McKay repeatedly.
But dig your well before you're thirsty. It's a great book from many decades ago. But the time to realize that you need to spend marketing dollars is not when you go, oh, where did my pipeline go?
It's when business is good. Put that money away for a rainy day and figure out where your target market is and start digging that well before you're thirsty. If you want to know how to do it, join me on a strategy session.
It is our premium channel. I'm super excited to provide you with actionable steps of what this actually looks like. It's the cost of a latte a month.
And we will get you started on the path to figuring out how to make sure you're not sitting there going, where is my pipeline? And that's the closing bell. I hope you've gathered valuable insight from our conversation today, equipping you to thrive in your interior design business.
Don't forget to hit that follow button to never miss an episode. And if you have burning questions or specific topics you're curious about, explore our episode library or better yet, book a strategy session directly with me at colorworks.coach. Until next time, see you in the studio. It's our virtual community.
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