You’ve likely had a pillow or sofa inspire a design—but art? Art tends to be more of an afterthought in design (as much as it pains me to acknowledge that). So, what are we to do as designers? How do we get our clients to understand the value of an art piece that makes them feel happy? Is there a good way to connect with amazing local artists? And what else do we need to know?

In this roundtable episode, Dr. Stacey Denise Moore, Mandy Theis, and I share our thoughts on art, why art matters in design, how it impacts our nervous systems, and what you need to know from the artist’s perspective. Whether you’re an interior designer or commercial spaces are more your style, you’re sure to get a lot out of this conversation! Grab your notebook and stay til the end for this week’s Coaching Corner insight!

In this episode, we cover:

• How art changes design for residential and interiors

• What atelier art training is and why it matters

• The importance of psychology in art and design

• How humans and even animals perceive color

• How art impacts the nervous system

• Mistakes that are made with art in interior design

• Reasons to purchase art for your home

• How we lost touch with the art of purchasing art

• The physiological result of good, real art in a home

• What we can learn from hotel design

• How to “sell” the idea of commissioned art to design clients

• The role of AI in art and design

• The different forms of art to consider for interior designs

• How to select the best art for the client, the space, and the design

• What cities are now doing to connect artists with designers

• How art can be the gateway to color in a home

• Which industries are largely driving the color trends

• The number one question we should ask design clients when selecting art

• Why art feels so inaccessible to many people

• What we can do as designers to raise up the next generation to love art

• More on the science of neuroaesthetics in design

Once you hear these two unique takes on art, design, and affordability, I think you’ll find it challenging to not think about art at the beginning of every design project! And I know that will make the three of us feel very happy with a job well done. Find us on the socials and let us know how this conversation has inspired you to approach art differently with your designs!

More about Dr. Stacey Denise Moore

Dr. Stacey Denise Moore is a multifaceted artist whose journey has taken her from the world of medicine to the realm of contemporary digital art. She is a pioneering force in the world of interior design, bringing a remarkable fusion of medical expertise, color mastery, and emotional resonance to her transformative work. As a pediatric surgeon turned neuroaesthetic designer and contemporary new media expressionist, Dr. Stacey's unique background has greatly influenced her artistic vision. Her work is characterized by vibrant colors, emotional depth, and a keen eye for the interplay between art, science, and the human experience.

More About Mandy Theis

Mandy Theis is an atelier-trained artist, a former Professor at the Florence Academy of Art, and a licensed K-12 art educator. She helps people learn how to draw and paint realistically - no experience required.

Links and Mentioned Resources

The Studio

Coaching Strategy Session

Christie’s

Sotheby’s

Canvas.io

Oklahoma City Artist Registry

Apollo Art

Connect with Dr. Stacey Denise Moore

Instagram

Website

Connect with Mandy Theis

Instagram

Website

This episode is brought to you by Nello Marelli

Struggling to stay ahead with the ever-evolving design trends while running your business? Discover the secret weapon of the design world - the 2025 Nel Colore Color Trend Book. Crafted by the renowned Italian designer Nello Morelli, whose expertise guides luxury brands from Milan to Paris, this tool is now stateside with our partnership. Get exclusive access to future color trends, combinations, and sociological insights up to two years in advance, ensuring your designs stand out. Elevate your projects and leave the trend-watching to us. Find the Nel Colore Color Trend Book, along with a mini version, exclusively in The Studio. 

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

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More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design

As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship. 

This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm. 

Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows

Katie (00:02.246)

Hey ladies, welcome to the show.

Dr. Stacey Denise (00:04.65)

Hi, how are you doing, Katie? Hi, Mandy.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (00:04.9)

Hi, thanks for having me. Hi, Dr. Dintneys.

Katie (00:06.854)

Good. I'm so excited. Yes. We have like, well, this is a round table. And as you can tell, we all are going to love to chat about all the things because this is going to be a great episode on art and why art matters in design for the person like Mandy, who creates beautiful atelier pieces of art. Dr. Stacy is going to tell us why it matters and hopefully we'll try not to talk all over each other, but we, it just might happen because we all love art. That's why we're here. Right. Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (00:30.806)

It's hard to keep the passion in check, yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (00:31.434)

That's right, that's right. Exactly, exactly.

Katie (00:37.03)

So true. Okay, so let's start with Mandy just cause your first step. How, what drew you to art and how for you does art change design for residential interiors?

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (00:48.708)

I mean, that's a very big question. But so just a little bit about what atelier training is, because I know that's an unfamiliar word for many people. It's basically the way artists were trained until about 100 years ago with the advent of modernisms, you know, and more abstract painting styles. So it used to be that you had to have the skills and techniques to draw and paint realistically if you wanted to be an engineer and build a bridge or any other.

Katie (00:56.358)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (01:14.276)

type of thing, but also it's a way of seeing the world. It's a visual language and learning how to draw and paint from a technical standpoint helps give you that visual language. And when I advocate for technical works to be included in interior design, it's often because there's so much to see and that you see more and more every time that you look at a piece that was done by hand, you know, through the craft and knowledge of somebody with this atelier training, which is actually quite rare today to find. And so,

Katie (01:32.934)

you

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (01:43.78)

My school, the School of Atelier Arts and other ateliers, we are working to save this knowledge kind of from extinction. In the 1980s, there were only two places left in the world where you could still go to a school and learn these skills, that Westerners had access to. It's interesting to see how we kind of lost touch with these skills and now they're experiencing a renaissance and are a bit of a countercultural movement in the art world.

Katie (01:50.694)

Hmm.

Katie (02:07.142)

It makes my heart sing because the art teacher in my kid's school just happened to have finished her atelier training in Italy last year. And I'm just, yes, yes. And so Cynthia annoyed. Yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (02:14.378)

them.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (02:14.884)

at the Florence Academy of Art? Who's your art teacher? She might've been in the program I was teaching at. Yes! my goodness, I didn't know you knew Cynthia. Yeah. send her my love. Yes.

Katie (02:24.742)

It is such a small world. In fact, I will see her later today when I total into my kids art class. And yeah, I do that every week. I'm on year four. I love to volunteer in her classroom because I'm sitting in there as a designer and my kids love it because I'm there, but I'm learning. I'm learning so much from the Atelier method. Just I'm coming in there and I'm like, I so am. OK, fractals, fractals matter in design. Fractals matter in art.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (02:37.924)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie (02:49.382)

there's a moment. OK, thank you. I'm so glad I showed up for school today at my kid's elementary school, right? That's so funny. You know her. Yeah. She's a good egg. Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (02:50.116)

That... Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (02:55.588)

I can't believe that. of course I do. I mean, the Atelier world is very small. So if you know an Atelier trained person, it's one of those things that you're likely to know. But Cindy's wonderful. And she just finished the program I helped create with the Florence Academy of Art for a master's degree. For art teachers, they could get this training in the summers. So for three summers, they can go and train and get their Atelier training.

Katie (03:05.478)

That's amazing. Yeah.

Katie (03:13.286)

Katie (03:19.302)

In fact, I was joking with her. I'm like, this summer is going to be a real letdown for you because you're not going to be in Europe, huh? Like you're going to be doing kids camps for my kids in art. Like I hope you're real thrilled. She's like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. It was so good. Dr. Stacy, tell us how you found your way into art.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (03:22.084)

Dr. Stacey Denise (03:23.722)

Hahaha

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (03:29.988)

Yes, yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (03:34.25)

I've started off early on before I went into medical school, enjoying art, doing more, I would say...

spoken art and what I mean by that like writing poetry, writing raps. And then after that, my mother was like, no, girlfriend, you go into medical school because you need to eat. And so I went to medical school, you know, and I went and did pediatric surgery. And I did pediatric surgery for almost 10 years. And then I was like, you know, something was calling me back to go into art. And I love color and color like speaks to the soul, you know, as long as we still have a visual way for, you know, retinas to

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (03:53.315)

Hahaha!

Katie (03:54.598)

I like your mama.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (03:59.491)

Mmm.

Katie (03:59.654)

Yeah.

Katie (04:03.686)

It's amazing.

Katie (04:10.822)

Yes it does.

Dr. Stacey Denise (04:14.012)

connect to our occipital lobes, you know, when we see color, it just it just does something to us that I haven't yet. Exactly. Exactly. More so than, you know, I'm doing a project quite actually I noticed I'm going to come back and explain. But I have somebody come back. I had a person in agriculture reach out to me because I do not only do I do interior design, I can I do the artwork and I do more art commissions and you know, my whole focus is color psychology and

Katie (04:20.934)

It changes everything.

Katie (04:29.67)

No, you go right ahead.

Dr. Stacey Denise (04:43.868)

aesthetics and how we as humans perceive color and how it makes us feel. How can it regulate our nervous system so we can feel calm, creative, productive. But she was like, can you can you do some color psychology for my animals? And I'm like, I never really thought about that. So I'm like doing some research. I'm like, right, right. I'm like, okay, this is different. And so now I'm like, I'm doing research about how animals perceive color. And so I didn't know chickens have four

Katie (05:02.406)

I never thought about that till you just said that. Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (05:13.724)

cones like as humans we have three RGB you know the RGB scale exactly but they but they see they have four color cones and so they get like a full they do right

Katie (05:18.118)

Red, green, blue, yeah.

Katie (05:23.974)

So chickens see more colors than we do. That's kind of insulting. Can I just feel that for a minute? Like the chicken can, I'm sorry, but I'm not okay with that, Dr. Stacey. Continue.

Dr. Stacey Denise (05:32.746)

But because they're forage, they forage. And so they rely on their eyes to be able to know where where's food, what's good food, what's not good food and mating. So it was this very fascinating. And like her horses and goats, I didn't even know they only have they can only see blue and green. And so I'm sitting up like, OK, so. OK, so it's been an interesting journey to know how not just we perceive color, but, you know, mammals and the rest of the world around us. I took it for granted. I never really thought about that. But.

Katie (05:42.182)

Interesting.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (05:50.82)

Yeah

Katie (05:53.83)

Wow.

Katie (06:01.062)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is fascinating.

Dr. Stacey Denise (06:02.954)

You know, so there's a project that's coming up. So I can't... Go ahead.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (06:05.124)

Yeah, well, Dr. Stacey makes an amazing point about the cones for receiving color in the eye because I'm in the education world a lot, I'm teaching art to a lot of people. And so there are quite a few men that actually only have two cones for receiving color in their eye, which is creating the red -green color blindness. And there's this really rare condition where some...

Katie (06:23.206)

Interesting.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (06:25.54)

humans, if you're a woman, can have four cones for receiving color and it's called tetrachromacy and it's everybody in my world just like hopes that they'll have a tetrachromacy. Maybe you do Dr. Stacey, it's really hard to test for.

Dr. Stacey Denise (06:28.426)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (06:36.714)

Hahaha!

Hahahaha

Katie (06:42.828)

that's insane. Well, it was interesting because we had Jason Bemis with the International Association of Color Consultants. I love Jason. Isn't it wonderful? That's where we got our certification. It's just great. But we were talking about that and he goes, well, it's kind of insulting to men because they're finding that, you know, over time, women are developing more ability to see better colors, even without having the...

Dr. Stacey Denise (06:49.066)

I tried to do a taste test. Yeah, I did that program. huh. Yeah.

Katie (07:10.886)

tetrachromacy per se, but we're getting to the point where we can see better colors and we can see different spectrums and we have more and that isn't happening for men. He found that quite disconcerting, but I love how transparent and honest he was to even bring it up on our episode, which we'll put in the show notes. But yeah, it's an interesting, interesting thing. And I think what I wanna really focus on is, well, we wanted to have the conversation, but then this week we ended up having a client come forward who said, we want you to do a speak easy, super fun.

Dr. Stacey Denise (07:12.714)

That's it.

Katie (07:39.654)

This is the idea of what we're thinking, what it looks like, feels like, vibes like. And we all went, there's no art. How are you doing this without art on the walls? My heart. Thank you, Mandy. Exactly. We were like, so we left some room in your budget because we think you might need some art over here. And like they just hadn't thought of it. And I think like as designers, art can be, I don't want to say the stepchild, but can be the afterthought. Really? We care about the fabrics and the draperies and the.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (07:48.483)

My heart.

Katie (08:07.334)

flooring and the blah, blah, blah, blah. And then yes, we get into wallpapers and then it's like, okay, what do we have left over for art? And that is not okay for a number of reasons. One, because it's my passion and I'm saying it's not okay, but let's talk to the experts. Mandy, why, why is it important from an artist's perspective that as we're creating spaces, we provide canvases to you as an artist to put them in.

Dr. Stacey Denise (08:14.41)

Subscribe.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (08:20.963)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (08:33.092)

Well, there's a lot of reasons to purchase real art for your home. You have the...

Reason of you know quality over quantity, right? So I'm always astonished when I go into a multi -million dollar home and there's prints on the wall I think what are you doing here? Like you have this great opportunity and it's a whole ecosystem too It's not just You'll have a unique work of art that nobody else will ever have in their home That will change for you every time you see it because it's made with real hands on real surfaces with real materials But also that you're participating in an ecosystem where you are, you know supporting an artist

Katie (08:47.366)

Yeah. Yep.

Katie (09:01.126)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (09:08.407)

by purchasing that work, that they're able to create more things that are more beautiful that you could possibly also include in your home. And also the joy that it brings you. Having a real painting in your house is not the same as having a print. And I encourage anybody who doesn't believe that to go to a museum and to see how it feels different to look at a real painting versus a print. And also, you take care of it and you're more careful about what you select because when you're commissioning a painting or you're purchasing a painting, you're usually paying a price point of

Katie (09:34.726)

Mm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (09:38.262)

not a whim, not something you want to throw out in the next season, but something that you actually connect with that represents you, your personality, your dreams, your hopes, your goals. Something to remind you of who you are and reflects back to you what matters in your life. And so people are much more careful when they're buying a real piece of artwork than something that matches the couch, right?

Katie (09:47.782)

I love that. Yeah.

Katie (10:00.278)

totally. Instead of what's at Home Goods or what we're specifying as designers, I mean, take the time to build the relationships with the artist in your community and go find them. And I think what's really neat too, go ahead.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (10:08.293)

Absolutely. But yeah. Well, just that that's also a lost art. So it used to be that the way art was collected, there was an understanding and a system that people learned. Like their parents bought real art, they learned how to buy real art or whatever. But with this like weird disruption of modernism, where we separated technique from.

Katie (10:14.758)

Mmm.

Katie (10:21.542)

Hmm. Hmm.

Katie (10:26.53)

interesting.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (10:32.581)

the quality or what the value was of a painting, things got really confusing and a lot of people started opting out. The closest a lot of people came, like in the 80s, to buying real art was like a Thomas Kinkade painting that had, you know, like some, right.

Katie (10:45.126)

gosh, no offense Thomas, but yes, his use of lights. Amazing. Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (10:48.581)

Well, you know, I'm actually a fan of Thomas Kinkade, not because I particularly like his art. He was a technically skilled painter, but, you know, he probably had a greater influence than any of the, you know, famous artists that were his contemporaries because people actually resonated. Like his message of like joyful cottage in the woods resonated with enough people that he was sold on the market, like for billions of dollars. Like he was actually traded like in stocks.

Dr. Stacey Denise (10:48.65)

Okay.

Katie (11:05.862)

Hmm. Hmm.

Katie (11:18.214)

Really? I had no idea.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (11:18.372)

form, like on the market for billions of dollars. That's how many people were buying his work because it meant more to them than a lot of, you know, I don't know, the shark and formaldehyde, you know.

Katie (11:27.142)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (11:30.596)

that was being promoted as high -end art at the time. So I think that there's a desire in the community for real art, but there's a lack of knowledge on how to find artists, what to pay. People are intimidated. They're afraid to ask if they don't know. Artists are afraid to put their prices out there. And so there's like a lost art of actually how to purchase real art.

Katie (11:31.238)

Yes, yes, yes.

Katie (11:44.998)

Hmm... Hmm...

Katie (11:51.846)

You know, we often don't think about that. And I want to come back to that. You made such a good point about there's an actual exchange that happens not with a print, but with a real piece of art. Dr. Stacy, as a doctor, can you speak to that? What is the physiological components that happen for us as interior designers? You know, cause that's really our audience as you're going out and building those relationships to Mandy's point and procuring pieces and really trying to create people's homes that hug them as Michelle in pants says.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (12:00.227)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie (12:21.862)

What is the physiological, the biological result of good real art in a home?

Dr. Stacey Denise (12:28.394)

So I have to preface that. I create art. So another layer to what I do besides interior design and art commissions. And I can respect where you're coming from, Mandy, about the real art comment. But I work in a digital realm and the artificial intelligence. And I think that incorporating that as an aspect too. When you say real art, I think where the connection lies is.

Katie (12:38.662)

Yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (12:57.642)

When you go to these kind of cookie cutter, and I put it in air quotes, cookie cutter, home goods, and Kirklands, and everybody's getting that mass produced thing because they don't really understand what it takes to create a piece of art. So it can be on a canvas, it could be on wood, it could be digital, and printing on different materials, but capturing the essence of somebody and really getting to know. When you do a commission piece, Mandy, I'm sure you're talking to your clients. You want to know, what would you do?

Katie (13:01.606)

Yes.

Ross Marshall's. Yes. Yep.

Katie (13:19.814)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (13:27.548)

I mean, why are you coming to me to commission a piece of art? What brings you joy? What aggravates you? What are your hobbies? I just did a commission for a guy who never thought that he could be an art collector. He's like, you know, I'm a blue collar worker and I've been intimidated by art. And I said, you shouldn't have to be intimidated. So we had a whole interview and worked through the whole process. And I said, well, what speaks to you? He's like, I like to travel. I like jazz. I like the Lakers. I was like, okay, well, we can mix that. And so I created.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (13:33.644)

Alright.

Katie (13:35.11)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (13:41.252)

Mmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (13:45.316)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (13:54.757)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (13:57.404)

a piece that you know spoke to his love of the Bengals and the love of the Lakers and jazz and put that into a work that spoke to him and when he got it he was just like wow and I'm not I'm not that traditional painter but you know he was just like wow this talks to me these colors resonate with me because these are all the things that we had a discussion about so I think that's where that cookie cutter art has that disconnect because you don't make only the emotional and psychological

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (14:01.188)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (14:08.708)

yeah. No.

Katie (14:23.654)

Mmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (14:27.26)

and emotional memory cognitive part of art, but then the visual part of bringing the colors home. So I think the colors are like the icing and the cherry on top of a well baked cake of knowing, you know, what it is that should be in that particular piece. And I think that speaks to what you said, Kate, about...

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (14:30.34)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (14:43.365)

it.

Dr. Stacey Denise (14:46.218)

Art is an afterthought, right? We worry about the fabrics, the furniture, the flooring, right? The wall colors on the wall. But okay, now how do you bring it all home full circle so that when somebody walks into a room, I always use the analogy of a hotel. We like going to hotels and resorts because when we walk in, we never think about it but we feel good. Like when you walk in, you're like, you know what I'm saying?

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (15:08.964)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (15:12.266)

Like you know what it is to be at home, but when you're walking in, you're like, my God, what is it? It's because they took the time, not only just with, you know, the decor of the colors and the furnishings and the textures and the textiles and the art too. And it seamlessly works together that you don't even have to think about. When your body walks into it, it knows, I'm happy.

Katie (15:13.446)

Yes!

Katie (15:29.702)

Hmm.

Katie (15:33.894)

Mm, mm, mm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (15:34.341)

Yeah, I love that you brought that up Dr. Stacey because...

You know, something that I've noticed just from being really specifically in the painting world, because I'm not a interior designer like you both are, is that as far as the painting world goes, there have been these ebb and flows of where painting was heavily considered as part of a design and times that it was more of an afterthought. So I'm thinking of like the arts and crafts movement when, you know, William Morris was like, have nothing in your home that is not useful or beautiful to you, you know, to like, it was really integrated. And a lot of painters at that time were almost intentionally making decorative

Katie (15:55.686)

Hmm. Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (16:08.187)

And then that really kind of separated for a while. And now, you know, I think people are seeing the importance of what Dr. Stacey is saying that, you know, why be in a space 24 seven and not make it feel good to you? You know, like we spend so much time in our homes, especially after the pandemic, you know, like a new color, some, some thoughtful design can just make it feel good to you. And so I think that's a really important point. And I think that's a really important point that we need to be able to do.

Katie (16:35.174)

Mmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (16:37.99)

bring so much joy to your life. It's not another thing that's going to bring you joy. It's a better arrangement of the colors in your space and in the objects in your space and being careful about which ones you let into your life because they are taking up your mental bandwidth. And so why are you letting an inane piece of whatever art or take up your mental bandwidth when I love what you said about that digital artwork, Dr. Stacy, you know, that you were making a unique piece to bring out the favorite memories of your person that you were commissioning it for.

Katie (16:40.518)

Hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (16:44.586)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (17:07.863)

for your client. And so I love this idea that artists, like people like myself, are thinking more about creating paintings for specific spaces and that designers are thinking about specific paintings as part, designing spaces around paintings. And that really excites me that those two worlds are starting to get closer together again after spending a fair amount of time apart.

Katie (17:30.63)

far and too long I would argue and how what would you say to our interior designers who are like I hear you I know this I agree I don't know how how how do I sell it to my client that there is value in having I would like personally I'd rather have one incredible commissioned piece of art than have a bunch of knockoffs from Home Goods right or whatnot.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (17:32.548)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (17:56.676)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (17:57.318)

Let's just go for the one statement piece. That's take my breath away to borrow the song, but that really does take your breath away. How is a designer? Do we build that into the budget and sell it to the client when there's still, I feel like some reticence kind of do what Mandy was saying about Dr. Stacy's client who was like, I'm a blue collar worker. I don't have any business commissioning art, right? No, no, no, no, no. Hold the phone. You do. You really, really do. And it doesn't have to be ridiculously stupid in price point.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (18:01.252)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (18:25.798)

That being said, people who are hiring interior designers are usually doing so because they are buying back their time. They're affluent and they want it back, right? So how, what, what tools would you put in this toolkit of designers when they're trying to position this for a client who may not be as into art as they think they need to be in order to commission? Cause I feel like it's kind of had like this a little bit of a stodgy, bougie, you have to be that person to commission art, right? And that's not true.

Dr. Stacey Denise (18:31.53)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (18:55.501)

Well, I think a good entry point into that is actually not commissioning artwork and to purchase artwork from artists that you trust that already exist because that's a lot safer, especially for some if they've never had real art in their home or finding designers or artists that are working at a lower price point where it feels like it's not quite as scary for that first piece.

Katie (19:03.302)

Mm.

Ooh, I like that.

Katie (19:15.046)

Ahem.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (19:21.733)

As somebody, you know, I have done many commissions myself. I am in a world where people tend to, you know, commission a lot of paintings. And I've actually recently gone to no more commissions. So I no longer offer commissions on paintings. If a designer comes to me and is like, I really like your peonies. Do you have anything in this size? I'll be like, no, I might paint some, but I'm not going to like follow a specific.

Katie (19:34.958)

wow!

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (19:50.468)

you know guide because I got stuck painting I call it my painting my peony purgatory painting period I'm like I ended up painting peonies for two years because like one peony commission led to another yeah no the peonies and and now I'm like I'll paint them when I feel like it and I'm not taking any more commissions for

Katie (19:59.91)

I mean, forget Monet and the water lilies.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:07.973)

for panties, but other people do really, really well with commissions and they really enjoy making something specific for that person. So I think you need to have a stable of artists, just like any gallery would have a stable of artists, and know the personality of the artist you're working with and the personality of the client that you're working with and match them appropriately, just like you would a couch with the right client, right? Like, you know, yeah.

Katie (20:12.742)

Yeah.

Katie (20:29.702)

I love that. That's a great tip. Find the artist you like, buy what already exists, or help your clients buy what already exists. It takes the intimidation out of it.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:36.42)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:40.148)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (20:40.65)

I come from a different school, I'm sorry. That's why I do art and design together. No, that's why I do... Because the reason why I do art and design together is because it's been a disconnect, right? And you don't have... It's like... It's like the... I'm gonna use the medical world as an example. That's like when...

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:42.692)

That's okay.

Katie (20:43.302)

No, that's why you're all on this roundtable, because it's so different. I love it.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:52.196)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (20:52.774)

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (20:58.148)

Yeah.

Katie (20:58.214)

Please do.

Dr. Stacey Denise (20:59.85)

patient comes and you know as a surgeon, I'm talking and I'm speaking surgeonese to these people, you know to my patients and they're like okay and then you go and then you go to the family doc and they're like you know and it's a disconnect right instead of getting back to the essence of the patient.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:06.308)

I love that term.

Katie (21:08.838)

This is Mandarin? Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:14.532)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:18.084)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (21:18.25)

So it's the patient and now we have to come to the patient or the client who is the interior, you know, they want their, you know, commissioning a piece, you know, hiring a designer to work with our home. They're coming to us because of our expertise. And even though I know we have Camp Art and Camp Design, I don't know why, because to me, art and design are the same. I mean, art and is design, you know, I mean, Frank Gehry is like my role model. I mean, and he's done it all, right? And uses technology.

Katie (21:31.878)

Mmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:37.668)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (21:38.118)

Absolutely. Yep.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:40.484)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (21:44.294)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (21:48.156)

you know, in ways that we just got our hands on, right? As a society, OpenAI, mid -jury, all these tools that we have to incorporate, but he's been doing that all over the world, you know, and people go and look at his work all over the world. But I think it takes people who are like yourself, like you Mandy, to say, hey, you don't have to be a Sotheby's or Christie's, you know, it's not this kind of party. Art is a right. I mean, we've been doing cave paintings since we've been on the...

Katie (21:51.91)

Yeah.

Katie (21:56.454)

It's crazy.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (21:59.532)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (22:12.518)

Well said, yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (22:18.06)

planet. So I'm just saying in terms of art is something that we do. I mean it can be painting, it could be drawing, it could be photography, it could be any form. Singing, poetry, that's what I was telling you. I came into art because I like to write. All of it is art, right, and it's a form of abstraction and that's how we speak to each other. People don't think of it like that but that's how we communicate with each other.

Katie (22:19.718)

Hmm. Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (22:31.62)

Yeah. Yes.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (22:41.221)

absolutely. And just to your Christie's and Sotheby's points, I didn't know this until I was with a really wealthy collector one time, but anybody can go into the auctions when they have everything displayed. Anybody can go and look at the exhibits that they have before they auction it off. And something that I didn't know existed, they have a lot of really good paintings, really good paintings that are unsigned and so that they can't sell them at a premium. And they have kind of like a online auction or a quiet auction. And I'm talking like phenomenal.

paintings that are going for like a couple thousand dollars, right? Like it's not so unaccessible, but it's just not known about. So like I encourage anybody the next time they're in New York City, go into Christie's in Sotheby's, go look at whatever, you know, show, exhibit they have up and go find these unsigned works that they can't sell at the premium because they don't have the brand label signature and just pick your favorite artwork. Like it's way more accessible than you think it is.

Dr. Stacey Denise (23:15.114)

Yeah.

Katie (23:37.018)

Hmm. Hmm. That is such a novel thought. Yeah. Jump in Dr. Stacey.

Dr. Stacey Denise (23:39.654)

I'm sorry. I was just thinking that the nice thing about technology, I'm sorry, I've always been in love with technology, is that you can take, like what you were talking about, if...

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (23:47.972)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (23:54.762)

not being able to marry a particular piece with the interior design. Now that we can scan, like I use canvas .io and with iPhones and iPads, you can scan a room, take that bad boy in a sketch up and insert that art and say, hey, does this work? You know, this is what we're doing for interior, with your interior design. Do you like this piece? No. And all you got with a click of a button, you can just keep changing it till they're like, yeah, I like that. And now you can go all in, you know, and you know, go crazy. Cause once you do, you know, once you have all the

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (24:06.052)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (24:12.676)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Absolutely. Right.

Katie (24:32.582)

Hmm.

Katie (24:42.534)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (24:44.036)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (24:50.052)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (24:50.31)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (24:53.348)

Mm -hmm, right. I love that.

Dr. Stacey Denise (24:54.588)

I can tell you, like, you know, what does it mean to you? And like, and that's why I was saying, when my client was like, I'm a blue collar worker, what does art mean to you? And he started talking about it. I was like, we can make that happen. So I think that people have this vision because the mass media projects that what art should be. And if you're not on in this particular piece, then you don't mean, you know, like you said, you have what, a whole bunch of pieces that go.

Katie (24:57.414)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (25:11.236)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (25:16.932)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (25:19.626)

un - auctioned, right? That are the fraction of the cost that are beautiful pieces, but because it's not Basquiat, you don't get the light of day, right? And so people, you know, I'm just saying and people thinking like, you know, you've got a huge interior design project and people thinking they need to have Andy Warhol on the walls. They think that, but I'm like, no, yeah, but that's true. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (25:21.476)

Right, right.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (25:27.109)

Right. Right. Right. Well, yeah. Mm -hmm. All right.

Katie (25:29.798)

You're in a closet. It's fair.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (25:39.204)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Well, it's a brand, right? Yeah. Mm -hmm. But, you know, I really encourage, you know, sometimes when I talk to designers and I'm like trying to encourage them, you know, use real art in your designs, you know, you can do it. Something that comes up as a barrier of entry for some of the designers I've talked to is that they don't have time to like track down and have a stable of artists and, you know, be aware of it. But one one like hack, if you will, is to work.

with schools, like universities in particular, like build a relationship with professors there and they are always feeding you their students work and their work and what they think is best. And like you can often go to exhibit with like 20 artists work and you can like pick up stuff like I don't want to say so cheap, but like these artists don't yet fully realize the true value of their works and they're looking for that confidence of their first sales and it's a win -win, right? Like you, you know, so find your local atelier, find your local university art program.

Katie (26:12.038)

that's a great tip.

Dr. Stacey Denise (26:24.938)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (26:37.924)

And you only need a relationship with the person that designs the exhibits, right? You don't have to worry about being friends with everybody. Just stay in their loop and show up at an art opening with 20 potential artists and you'll find some things that work for you.

Katie (26:51.974)

And I think what a lot of people don't realize too, and what we have found is there's a lot of cities now that are pulling together art directories and their art commissions are pulling together art directories of artists that are doing great work that have been vetted and they put them on their website. We did this with Oklahoma city all the time. They have an incredible art commission city of Norman in Oklahoma has another one and they've got a whole digital Rolodex like Rolodex. my gosh. I'm dating myself, but don't judge that term. It's Friday.

Dr. Stacey Denise (26:52.458)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (26:59.076)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (27:06.116)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (27:09.034)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (27:11.076)

That's awesome.

Wow. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (27:17.706)

Hehehehe

Katie (27:22.182)

But you can go through and it's what's so great is you can sort them by what type of medium do you want? Do you want a fiber artist, a wood artist? Do you want something canvas metal? You name it. It's already been there for you. And so find your art commission too and say, what are you doing? And especially if you need bigger pieces, like in the commercial world, we end up dealing with a lot of public art and we need huge pieces that hang over the glass house on the interstate route 66, right? Like it was so fun to create a beautiful.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (27:27.269)

Amazing.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (27:42.372)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Right. Right.

Dr. Stacey Denise (27:48.618)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (27:50.854)

Car full -sized car out of tubes the artist who worked with was amazing and it's suspended from cables Hanging over route 66 is glass house. I mean, I mean like how fun is that? And so I think that yeah If you start looking what i'm hearing you both say you don't have to look hard It's going to be easier than you think and here's the route to it Mandy, I want to go back to the sotheby's comment and christy's comment

Dr. Stacey Denise (28:00.362)

Thank you.

Dr. Stacey Denise (28:11.754)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (28:12.612)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (28:16.486)

Do you have a link that allows us to go to those unnamed pieces or unsigned pieces that are constantly running that we could possibly include in our show notes?

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (28:22.596)

I will see if they have it listed online. They have rotating exhibits. But if you show up in person, there is a wall that they dedicate to it. So if you go to Sotheby's, every time I've been there, it's been there. So I don't want to promise that it's there every time. But every time that I've been, I know. Look at me talking lawyer speak, right?

Katie (28:28.87)

Yeah. Okay.

Katie (28:35.622)

That's always there. wow.

Katie (28:41.286)

We're going to hold you to that Mandy.

Dr. Stacey Denise (28:43.242)

Hehehehehe

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (28:47.173)

But you should go to these places. I mean, they're amazing exhibits and they're often artwork that you'll never see again because they go into private homes afterwards, right? So it's kind of a cool, you know, little opportunity. I'll see if I can find you links because I know that the smaller paintings, they do online auctions and silent auctions or, you know, other auction forms for those. But yeah, it's way more accessible. I wish that galleries didn't feel like they had to be intimidating to be serious, right? Because there's a lot of people that can afford.

Katie (29:14.918)

Yes!

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (29:17.03)

and want what's in there, but are stopped like what Dr. Stacy's example was by these ideas of, that art isn't for me, right? And I think, and especially in this age, like, you know, all the technology that we have, there's no reason we can't tear down those barriers.

Katie (29:32.582)

I so agree. In fact, it's interesting. I love taking my kids into galleries because I love taking them into galleries, but it always, I get it. Kids are can be touchy. Mine are nine and seven. We've had the talk. Look, no touch, look, no touch, look, no touch. I mean, we could all be retired for every dollar of look, no touch, but I always, it's always really hard as a mom because I always feel pushed back from gallery owners of like, you're bringing a kid in. Don't touch, don't touch. Don't I'm like, I know I deeply respect your work by the same token. I can't raise up the next generation.

Dr. Stacey Denise (29:42.314)

Thank you.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (29:42.789)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (29:45.33)

Alright.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (29:53.445)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie (30:01.99)

Of kids that are not going to be intimidated by art who will do the commissions who will appreciate it for what it is if I don't bring them in now. So like that's always, I think a really tough thing too, is like, we do want to raise up that next generation. And I think when we do create homes as designers that we have an opportunity to provide a space and set an example for the kids that are living in those homes of the value of seeing if it's the Lakers with the Bengals with the, you know, like.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:02.245)

Right.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:06.245)

Alright.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (30:09.642)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:23.425)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:27.909)

Yeah.

Katie (30:28.806)

Not only was this what my parents loved, but they loved it enough that they put it in their home and it's a representation of them, which is a really beautiful thing. I also think color or not color, but art is a really good gateway drug for color for people who are afraid of color. We all love color. I'm looking at your, your dress, Dr. Stacy and your backdrop. And I'm looking at Mandy's backdrop, which is totally a telly a, and I'm just thinking through that. Like there's so many people that are intimidated by fine art or by color, but that this,

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:42.178)

I'm sorry.

Dr. Stacey Denise (30:43.882)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (30:51.493)

Yeah.

Katie (30:58.118)

This gives them an opportunity. You may not do an entire sofa, but you, maybe we can get you into an eight by 10, or maybe we can get you into something smaller that allows us to bring that into the home. How does that become a selling point? And how do designers use the introduction of color through art as a selling point to their clients?

Dr. Stacey Denise (31:01.802)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (31:05.285)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (31:05.77)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (31:18.282)

I mean, when I think of using the color as a selling point, especially because a lot of the trends, and I mean, we have Sherwin -Williams and Benjamin -Warter, thanks for these things, the grays, like a whole decade of gray, beige, all these, and it's just like, that's what I'm saying, exactly. It's like, okay, so when do we add that spark of color? I mean, people want it.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (31:33.925)

Yes.

Katie (31:33.958)

my gosh, you've been in grace since 2008. Yes. or grace grace. We got really excited. Yep. huh.

Katie (31:46.726)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (31:47.85)

But like you said, they're afraid to use it. So having somebody who can tie in all the elements to a room to that focal point, right? Just like you said, I mean, when I'm talking about color and art and design as well.

This is releasing endorphins, oxytocin. You know our feel -good hormones. Don't you wanna feel good? You know, some serotonin cooking in there. So let's have that. I mean, you don't need the Prozac. Exactly. I'm just saying, you know, you don't need Prozac. I mean, I'm just saying when you could just, if you surround yourself and you use the art that speaks to your client, and whatever that art piece is, it has to resonate. So then when they see it, then,

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (32:11.654)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie (32:12.326)

Yes. Yes. I want a dopamine hit, Dr. Stacey. I mean, come on.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (32:17.222)

I'm gonna go.

Dr. Stacey Denise (32:32.874)

And it could be a whole jazzy piece with all these loud colors. And that might be the only thing that, you know.

Katie (32:37.926)

Mmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (32:39.114)

they feel safe with, right? Because a lot of people, some people, if you're not careful, it's a lot of neurodivergent autism that has not been diagnosed, a lot of ADHD, and certain colors that jazz them up. So that's why I'm saying it's important for us to be able to chat with our clients and say, hey, you know, what drives you? Like sometimes, and then I don't get me wrong, because sometimes I've worked with designers before I even got into the business, and it's like we get carried away. Even I have colleagues who, you know, it's,

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (32:40.582)

Yeah.

Katie (32:48.71)

Yes.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (32:50.502)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (32:51.238)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (32:57.766)

Yeah.

Katie (32:59.302)

Yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (33:09.068)

It's not about me, it's not about you, it's about that client.

And so let's sit there and let them and bring them out that yeah I'm just saying because sometimes we go over the client and start doing our thing and then it's like and and then it's not a good experience and I'm like you know you want to leave knowing that you helped change a life not just I got a paycheck or put a color or you know a wallpaper I changed a life and when they come home they're gonna be happy I want you to be happy and feel safe at the end of the day and if you had that feeling we I

Katie (33:14.79)

that is such a good moment. Yes. Yes.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (33:23.814)

Yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (33:38.47)

Mm -hmm

Katie (33:38.982)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (33:43.98)

I did my job.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (33:45.446)

I love that so much. I'd like to just point something out that I see from my training in the Atelier world when it comes to color. And that is that we have these two extremes, like Dr. Stacey was saying, like what's this gray -ge beige gray everywhere all the time.

Katie (33:45.798)

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Katie (34:01.83)

So over it, yeah.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (34:03.079)

Right, and then I love all this color that's like coming in too, but in the Atelier world, we say that every color has three attributes, a value, how light and dark it is, a chroma, the intensity of the color, and a hue, which is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple. And when I go into the paint stores, I see...

grage like super, super neutral things. Neutral is the opposite of chroma and super, super chromatic things. But I feel like there's this whole range between the most chromatic and the most neutral that has these really subtle, beautiful qualities that is like missing from the conversation. And I don't know how that happened or why that happened, but especially chromatic darks are missing. So like.

Katie (34:37.006)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (34:43.078)

There's no such thing as black. There's only a really dark red, a really dark blue, a really dark purple. That's why your black pen, if it gets water on it, it runs blue or red or, you know. But to have not just a black, but a red -black, right? Where's that color? In the paint store, right? Where is it?

Katie (34:43.11)

us.

Katie (34:59.622)

yep, yep, yep. And we fight really hard with that because as so the flip side of that, especially doing a lot of exterior design, once you put that color out in the sun, I'm thinking there's a specific Sherwin Williams color. It that black goes purple because that sun just brings out all those undertones, right? And sometimes I just want like a really true, beautiful black, which is why I keep coming back to tricorn black because it's a true blue.

Dr. Stacey Denise (35:15.466)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (35:15.494)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (35:19.526)

Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (35:19.914)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (35:23.942)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (35:26.154)

Talk over here.

Katie (35:29.67)

black, but you're right. I mean, like where do we find those richer tones? And there are trends, trends are valuable. We've talked about them a lot on the show, but by the same token, we're missing out on some really beautiful colors in the, I'll call it the in between to your point, Mandy.

Dr. Stacey Denise (35:44.138)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (35:44.647)

Yeah.

Yeah, well, at least in the pigment industry, too, a lot of the new colors that are being discovered. So like we didn't have the cadmium red until the 1800s, right? So we're getting brighter and brighter colors all the time. We're getting darker colors because our eyes can actually see lighter lights and darker darks than we have pigment that can achieve that. So, you know, with these technological advancements like that. Yeah, for real. Like you if I'm trying to paint your picture, there are darker blacks in your darker darks, I'll call them, because.

Katie (36:04.358)

That's fascinating. For real.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (36:15.432)

there's no such thing as black as we discussed. In that my eye can see that we actually don't have pigment that's as dark as what you see. So people painting realistically, they're not just lavishly copying what they see, they have to recreate relationships. So if you want something to feel as dark as what you see it in life, you have to exaggerate the lightness of what's next to it.

But with the pigment industry, we have these new inventions all the time, but they're primarily driven by the makeup industry and the car industry. So we have brighter and brighter, brighter and brighter reds, right? But do you know what color is massively behind is like a coral, right? Because the car company doesn't care about coral and apparently the makeup company doesn't care as much about coral.

Katie (36:44.166)

the revenue generators.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (36:57.19)

So we have these like really chromatic reds and these really chromatic yellows, but that orangey kind of red coral color, like it's way less chromatic, the brightest coral that we have.

Katie (37:05.862)

Okay, so it's so funny you should say that. I was straight up looking for earrings the other day in coral to match some shoes that I have that I absolutely love. And I went into Target, because I was in a burn burn and hurry, and there was pink and there was orange. I was so frustrated and I just stood there, which you as color people will totally appreciate. And I was like, I just need you to mush them together and I would have the perfect pair of earrings. That's all I need for this one engagement. Why isn't this here? But that's interesting. So is it economics that's driving that because the makeup and car industries make so much money?

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (37:09.991)

-huh. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (37:20.582)

Hehehehe

Dr. Stacey Denise (37:22.73)

Thank you.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (37:26.214)

Right.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (37:31.59)

Yeah. I keep trying to convince a billionaire that wants a one -off car to commission a neon coral color, please. Would you do that? The billionaire is listening to this. Because no one else would ever have that color. It could be your invention. And then the rest of the world could have a chromatic pigment that was comparable to the yellows and reds and greens that we have out there. Yeah.

Katie (37:42.694)

that would be so pretty.

Katie (37:55.078)

That would be beautiful. That would be so beautiful. And it goes back again to color psychology, which I love Dr. Stacey that you talked about the dopamine and all of the positive feelings we get from color. I don't think people fully understand that when you're looking at a piece of real art, especially not a print, cause that's RGB limited, right? Or CMYK, depending on what you're printing.

Dr. Stacey Denise (38:02.89)

Thank you.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (38:13.894)

But I do agree that Dr. Stacey, you know what she's saying about the digital art, like, you know, when an art is made, you know, artwork is made for someone or is unique to that person. I do think she's right. It's not just the physicality of a painting. Yeah.

Katie (38:21.926)

Yes.

It speaks to them. No, it totally speaks to them. And as those colors are entering into their brain and running through those eyes, hitting the cones, registering to the optic nerve, I don't think we fully appreciate that how whatever is on that is what is it creates a physiological response in our bodies. It's not that you're just looking at it. It triggers chemical releases in your body.

Dr. Stacey Denise (38:49.898)

Mm -hmm. I think because we don't talk about it, right? I'm just saying we don't bring that into the discussion when we talk about art. I mean, it's not like, yeah, it's just, I think, you know, what do you see? I see this, I see that. You're just not like, what do you feel? You know, how do you, you know, what, you know, what is your heart? I mean, do you feel relaxed? Is your heart, where do you usually get stressed? Do you feel it there? And we don't talk about art in those terms. It's always, mm, what was the artist thinking?

Katie (38:58.694)

That's a great point.

Katie (39:04.87)

Yes!

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:14.182)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (39:16.842)

Like, you know, I went to some Francis Bacon exhibition. I mean, that's some interesting art, you know, like, OK, it's all good. You know, and the color palette, right? And the color palette is extremely, you know, it's like.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:16.934)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm. It's like bubble faces. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (39:29.126)

Yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (39:30.634)

on the grayish chromatic side, right? I mean, it's very muted. And so I'm just like, okay. But everybody's like, well, what was he thinking? What was he did? I'm like, how does it make you feel? How do you feel right now? Looking at that piece? And I'm not, I'm just saying, but how do you feel? Not that somebody was like, okay, this is an expensive work of art and therefore you should have it. And because you don't have it and own it, does that make you feel less than, you know, are you a part of the club? I'm not trying, listen, I don't have any problem with folks that can.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:32.55)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:40.646)

Right. Yeah.

Katie (39:42.086)

Yes.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:49.254)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:54.118)

yeah.

Katie (39:54.374)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (39:57.798)

Right.

Dr. Stacey Denise (40:00.588)

that had a means and the people that don't. But every time when I think about art and I talk to just people in general, it's always, I can't, it's not accessible. Why is that? Because only, you know, that only rich people or Christie's and Sotheby's. I mean, I'm just, they dominate that thing.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (40:01.959)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (40:08.135)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (40:11.526)

Hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (40:11.815)

Mm -hmm. Well, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Right. Well, yeah. So what you're really talking about is like the branding of artists, because if you take skill out of it, like why is Damien Hirst considered a high end artist, but Joe Schmo off the street is not right. And it's no longer about skill that's been taken out of the equation. So it's about collecting brands. So, you know, he's collected by Charles Saatchi. Charles Saatchi is a major collector. Charles Saatchi is a brand. If he collects your art, then all of a sudden the price of your artwork goes up. I'm being sold at Christie's and Sotheby's as a brand. If you have artwork that sells there, your brand goes up, et cetera, et cetera.

Katie (40:32.326)

Totally.

Dr. Stacey Denise (40:33.542)

Right. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (40:43.594)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (40:50.121)

Cube Gallery sells your work, that's a branded gallery, right?

And of course it doesn't make sense to anybody else because it's like a Louis Vuitton bag or something. No bag is actually worth $50 ,000. It's a brand, a statement, a thing like that. Yeah, perceived value. But unfortunately, this creates exactly what Dr. Stacey is talking about, this disconnect between people that feel like they're allowed to have art, that they need permission to have art or permission to have art that means something to them.

Dr. Stacey Denise (40:58.73)

right.

Right.

Katie (41:04.966)

perceived value.

Dr. Stacey Denise (41:06.282)

Exactly.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (41:23.674)

I'll never forget the time I took my dad to an art gallery and you know, it was like one of those white canvases and he's like, I don't get it. And I'm like, you don't have to get it. Like there's nothing to get in this particular piece. If the artist isn't communicating to you with the art, then it's no longer art in my opinion. It might be philosophy, you know, kind of the Tom Wolf in his book, you know, wrote about the painted word. It might be philosophy with an illustration, but unless the painting, in my opinion, is a painter.

Katie (41:26.278)

Mm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (41:35.69)

Boom.

Katie (41:43.622)

Yep.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (41:48.904)

If the painting is not communicating the artist's intent to the viewer using only a visual experience, it is not visual artwork. It might be philosophy, it might be a combination of other things, but if you need an essay to explain it, it is no longer visual art. It is written art, you know? But...

Katie (41:56.774)

Mm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (41:57.642)

Cool.

Katie (42:06.63)

That's a great way to put it. That's a really great way to put it. Well, it takes us right back to Dr. Stacey's client. He was like, I want bingles, I want Lakers, I like jazz, I like Moody. Like, my gosh, when you created that piece of art for him and he saw it and he had his aha wow. Check, check.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (42:09.384)

of it, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (42:21.226)

Mm -hmm. He was like, I don't even want to hang it. He was like, I'm scared to hang it. I was like, put it up on the wall. I'll just put it up on the wall and just play it.

Katie (42:31.654)

See, that's what it's about.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (42:32.328)

heartened and saddened by that. I'm heartened that somebody that thought that art wasn't for them found an artist and a piece that worked for them. And I'm also really sad that somehow we've convinced the general populace that they're not good enough for art. That's a tragedy. Anybody can access art. It's just not buying into the status symbol brands and looking for art that actually resonates with you.

Dr. Stacey Denise (43:00.49)

So I have a, because what you're talking about, Mandy, right? The status symbol and not having accessibility. Now I'm thinking about what is it? Generation alpha, right? Who they don't, exactly, who they don't, they haven't bridged this generational.

Katie (43:00.582)

I absolutely love that. Yeah, do it Dr. Stacey.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (43:12.68)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (43:12.902)

Yep, that's my kids.

Dr. Stacey Denise (43:19.69)

technological divide, right? Because we still have a camp that thinks that, you know, only well, it's nothing against that. That's just how people think that, you know, having a print is the only art, you know, now we're moving into VR, AR, right? And all the generative AI and what comes with that. And I think it's Apollo art. They have a whole digital platform. So if you go get the Sony, frame TVs, Samsung, and I'm sure it's going to be a whole new, you know, group of manufacturers who develop

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (43:27.048)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Dr. Stacey Denise (43:49.644)

these appliances to where okay if I'm

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (43:51.528)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (43:53.994)

you might have a younger crowd that they don't even care about having a canvas in the home. But guess what? I want a screen. And now, you know, you can build that in the wall. So before you even think about doing that, make sure that you hide those wires and let's talk about how we're going to construct that so that, you know, where it comes back to that ontological design, right? We desire for the environment and the art also speaks to the environment so that we like forward thinking about that. And I mean, I'm fascinated with that. So I'm like, think.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (43:59.88)

Sure. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (44:08.808)

Right. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Absolutely.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (44:24.456)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Sure.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (44:42.76)

Right.

Right, right. I think that's so important. Absolutely.

Dr. Stacey Denise (44:51.114)

Right? Because at the end of the day, for me, it's feeling. That's my big thing. How do you feel? And I think everybody deserves the right to just feel good and feel safe. That's that.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (45:00.456)

Yes, I agree with that so much. I was being a guest instructor in a public school classroom and they had just gotten one of those VR.

Katie (45:01.798)

Yes.

Dr. Stacey Denise (45:07.018)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (45:08.423)

sets and they're like, Mandy, Mandy, like paint a scene. And I was like, it was so cool. It was so much fun. Like, I made this like whole dinosaur landscape and this 3D world and you know, like it was a magical feeling to be able to create that way. So even though I mostly, you know, mix dirt with oil and rub it on woven linen for a living, I do have a massive appreciation for technology.

Dr. Stacey Denise (45:21.61)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (45:27.722)

Hahahaha

Katie (45:35.27)

is cracking me up. Well, and going back to the story I shared originally about my kids who like you, Dr. Stacey, you've mentioned, or Jen Alpha and the fear of taking them into a gallery. We so last Black Friday, it was so fun. Went and got the Samsung Art TV because I was like, I need to give them art in a safe place back to being safe. You all, we have had the best conversations. They understand pointillism. We've talked about Degas. Today we had, who was on?

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (45:51.816)

Yeah

Dr. Stacey Denise (45:52.042)

I'm sorry.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (45:59.016)

Ooh. Mmm.

Katie (46:04.102)

And it was filled with massive nudity. And my nine year old was sitting at breakfast and she goes, well, that's uncomfortable and offensive. And she looks up at the TV and I was like, well, let's talk about that for a minute. Why do you find that? Why do you find that offensive? Like, why do you, you know, and it was such a good moment because yeah, to the point, I love Atelier. I love that we have technology now where we live two and a half hours east of Seattle.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (46:16.748)

That's good.

Dr. Stacey Denise (46:17.578)

Good, yeah.

Dr. Stacey Denise (46:21.546)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (46:28.232)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (46:31.654)

We do not have the Smithsonian next door. So this gives me the opportunity to pull in these things and expose another generation. Because that is my passion. We have got to raise up a generation of kids who loves art and beauty, right? Because that then will support the next generation of artists.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (46:32.008)

Right.

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (46:45.066)

Mm -hmm.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (46:46.632)

Yes. Well, that's a see.

In the art world, beauty is a bad word. You wouldn't believe how many interviews I go on or podcasts that I go on because real art isn't beautiful. It's supposed to be political. It's supposed to be, you know, like in the art world, like in the hardcore art world, beauty is a bad word. And that's why I love so much working with designers and people that appreciate, right? Like, what are we doing? Like, why are we bombarding ourselves with ugly? It's like the hair shirt. Like, why are we visually assaulting our senses needlessly when we can't see?

Dr. Stacey Denise (46:54.122)

What is it?

Katie (46:57.99)

Why? Yeah.

Katie (47:07.91)

That's so sad.

Because...

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (47:20.554)

have beauty in our life.

Dr. Stacey Denise (47:20.874)

Interesting.

Katie (47:21.126)

And beauty, beauty comes in all forms. What's beautiful, like the gentleman who wanted the Bengals and the Lakers, I wouldn't put that in my own home. That was sheer and utter beauty to him. It spoke to his heart. I mean, it's interesting. I wonder how they're defining beauty. Because beauty to me is anything that resonates with you at a soul level. That's beauty. Like when something strikes you and you just sit back and you have that moment of almost like, it's almost like a force of nature where it pushes you back because you're so inspired. That's beauty. I'm so sad to hear that, Mandy. That...

Dr. Stacey Denise (47:37.162)

Thank you.

Dr. Stacey Denise (47:44.97)

Yep.

Yep.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (47:47.848)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't spend time in the high end art world podcast. Don't go there. Yeah. You don't need an invitation. Just go. Just go. You belong there. No. Well, yeah.

Katie (47:50.726)

Back to breaking my heart. Yeah, that breaks my heart because we want that. Well, you could tell they haven't invited me to Christie's. See, I even think I need an invitation. my gosh. What are we going to say? Dr. Stacey.

Dr. Stacey Denise (47:52.362)

Heheheheh

Dr. Stacey Denise (47:57.098)

That's neural aesthetics. Yeah, exactly. Interesting.

Dr. Stacey Denise (48:05.866)

I trust him. No, I was just saying that's a part of the neuroesthetics. You know, how we see beauty. I mean, that's the whole science of neuroesthetics. How do we see beauty? Like we take it for granted, but I mean, we need it. Like our brains are like wired for it.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (48:10.44)

Yeah.

Katie (48:10.694)

Mmm.

Katie (48:18.374)

Yes. Yes.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (48:19.529)

Yeah, and Dr. Stacey, I was stalking you before we got on this call and you had this room that had this like velvet bluish couch like on and I'm just like it struck me. I'm like, my God, I don't think I've ever seen a more beautiful couch than this couch that you had designed in this space. I'm like, I was like, I wonder if I can afford Dr. Stacey to help me.

Dr. Stacey Denise (48:23.938)

I'm gonna go.

Dr. Stacey Denise (48:28.522)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (48:33.61)

huh. Yeah.

Katie (48:39.43)

I love that.

This has been such a good conversation. Give me a nugget that our interior designers who are listening to this What do you want them to take away from today's conversation? And go forth into their respective modalities with dr. Stacy. Let's start with you

Dr. Stacey Denise (49:02.634)

I think the same way you think about, you know, leather or that wall paint color, you should be incorporating art into the discussion early. And just know that it can be, it can be not just, don't get, it can be more than just canvas. You have metal, you have wood, you have, you do have prints, you have canvas. I mean, you have a plethora.

Katie (49:10.982)

Ooh, I like that.

Dr. Stacey Denise (49:22.058)

It's just a matter of how to have a conversation with your client upfront. It should just be a part. It's like a prescription. Here's your prescription. We've got a prescription for happy. So let's talk about how we're going to do that. And that's all I'm going to say.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (49:32.112)

I love that.

Katie (49:34.214)

I love that. Or if you're, that's perfect. Or if you're Katie, you get a TV so that your kids can see it. And I'm just saying you buy yourself a Samsung 65 inch and you go, this is what we got and we're going to make it work. I'm just saying. That's beautiful. Mandy, what would you say? What's your nugget?

Dr. Stacey Denise (49:38.41)

There you go! That's a part of the scripture, too!

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (49:38.92)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (49:45.098)

There you go. There you go. Exactly. Exactly.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (49:46.856)

You

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (49:52.968)

I would say that I've seen designers be really inspired by a couch or a chair or a lamp and they design a room around that. And so I would encourage designers when they come across a painting that they are struck by, that they consider designing a room around the painting.

Katie (50:10.246)

love that idea and it doesn't have to be informed by the client. They may never see that painting even, which is really a crazy thought. I will never forget a client who brought forth a pillow back when I did residential design before I switched to commercial and she said, I want my whole room designed around this pillow. And I was like, how is everybody came with a pillow? You know, it makes life so much easier. All of a sudden we have a texture idea. We have a color idea. We have a palette or like all of these things.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (50:13.956)

Right.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (50:30.148)

I'm sorry.

Dr. Stacey Denise (50:31.498)

Ha ha!

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (50:35.112)

Mm -hmm.

Katie (50:39.334)

And I love the idea of using art is that like, what if we started our consultations with let's go through some art so I understand what camp you're in, we'll design out of that. What would that look like? And what would that manifest as an end result? I think it would be spectacular to put it, like you said, Dr. Stacey start early, but put it on the front end of design instead of on the back end and really show our clients this is accessible. It's not just for invitation only.

Dr. Stacey Denise (50:49.13)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Stacey Denise (50:55.562)

Yeah, I think so.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie (51:07.974)

Ladies, a fabulous conversation. Thank you both so much for your time. It was just amazing and just a treasure to have you here. Thank you.

Dr. Stacey Denise (51:12.394)

Yeah.

Thank you. Take care, Mandy. Bye, Kay.

Mandy Theis @mandyfineartist (51:16.008)

Thank you for having us. Take care, Dr. Stacey.

Katie (51:19.75)

Bye.