What insights are we seeing as we head into 2025? How can you position yourself and your firm for change and growth in 2025? And how are interior design industry leaders harnessing the power of AI? Well… welcome to the inaugural session of The Table! A space where we invite interior designers, coaches, and business owners to join the conversation about what's happening in our industry. 

Today, I'm joined by leaders in the interior design industry to discuss trends and predictions about the future—specifically 2025! You’ll hear from LuAnn Nigara, Rick Campos, and Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe. They’re sharing what 2024 was like for their businesses, what they’re evaluating as we wrap up the year, how they’re strategically approaching 2025, and how AI factors into all of this. You don’t want to miss this insightful and uplifting conversation! Stay for the Coaching Corner to continue that AI conversation. Let’s get started!

In this episode, we cover:

• Interior design business and industry insights from 2024

• Business trends that have been trending globally in 2024

• How interior design firms have been impacted by DIY this year

• Outside factors that have greatly impacted and devastated some businesses

• What to be mindful of when working with clients in the luxury market in a year of inflation

• Departments of your business to evaluate and improve as we round out 2024

• How designers and design firms can approach 2025 strategically

• The best way to avoid getting caught up in the chaos and emotions of this current season

• How interior designers can embrace and utilize AI in 2025

I couldn't have asked for a better first conversation of The Table! We’ll be back talking about all of this again in Q1 of 2025—post election, post interest rate changes, and looking at all the trends and metrics. Know that you are not alone in the struggle! We’d love to hear from you—say hi to us on the socials.

More About LuAnn Nigara

LuAnn is a celebrated media personality, energetic keynote speaker, and seasoned entrepreneur—with key roles in the partnership team behind both Window Works and Exciting Windows! Known for her dynamic and energetic presentations, LuAnn has been recognized as the “go-to” keynote speaker for leaders and entrepreneurs to launch their life and get out of their own way. She’s captured international attention for A Well-Designed Business®—a podcast with more than 1,000 episodes and over 8 million downloads! 

More About Rick Campos

Rick is a self proclaimed recovering interior designer, podcast host, and design business coach. He's on a mission to support and elevate the interior design community, having held thousands of conversations with designers and industry experts about the business of design. Rick leverages these lessons and generous advice from his peers to inform and empower design entrepreneurs across the globe to build stronger, more profitable businesses. 

More About Dr. Jennifer Chukwujekwe

Doctor Jennifer brings a global perspective from Nigeria with her multifaceted expertise. As an interior designer, coach, and author, she's dedicated to helping professionals, entrepreneurs, and interior designers thrive in their spaces, their lives, and their businesses through design. With her extensive knowledge and experience, she has successfully taught over 800 interior designers how to build, grow, and scale their businesses while maintaining profitability.

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Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty (Book)

Perplexity AI

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More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design

As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship. 

This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm. 

Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:00:00]:

What insights are we seeing as we head into 2025? How can you position yourself and your firm for change and growth in 2025? And how are industry leaders harnessing the power of AI? You've heard the buzz. Well, welcome to the inaugural session of The Table, a space where we invite interior designers to join the conversation about what's happening in our industry. Today, I'm joined by the incredible Lou Anne Nagara, who honestly doesn't need an introduction. She's a celebrated media personality, keynote speaker, and seasoned entrepreneur whose work has impacted so many in our industry. Next up, we have Rick Campos. Rick is a self proclaimed recovering interior designer, podcast host, and design business coach. He's on a mission to support and elevate the interior design community, having held thousands of conversations with designers and industry experts about the business of design. Rick leverages these lessons and generous advice from his peers to inform and empower design entrepreneurs across the globe to build stronger, more profitable businesses.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:00:58]:

Last but certainly not least, we have our powerhouse, doctor Jennifer Chukwajakwe. Doctor Jennifer brings a global perspective from Nigeria with her multifaceted expertise. As an interior designer, coach, and author, she's dedicated to helping professionals, entrepreneurs, and interior designers thrive in their spaces, their lives, and their businesses through design. Make sure and stick around until the end to hear about how I am using AI in our interior design firm. Let's get it started. Do you love interior design, but can't make the business side work? You've come to the right place. Welcome to success by design, Mastering the Business of Interior Design. Whether you wanna elevate in your current interior design firm, start your own firm, or move the needle when it comes to your existing firm's trajectory, this is your masterclass, and I'm your host, Katie Erickson.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:01:52]:

Learn from my mistakes as I built a coast to coast multimillion dollar interior design firm. I share nearly 20 years of serving as a university professor of undergraduate and graduate business courses with you. And best of all, I bring in experts in all things business and interior design. Class starts now. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of The Table. And I will tell you, we have assembled the best and the brightest, and I'm so excited to have this conversation as we come into q 4. We wrap up this year, and I can't wait to hear, and I know you can't wait either, who and what everyone is thinking out here.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:02:28]:

How is the year ending? Has it turned out well? And, of course, I'm gonna rely on everybody to bring their crystal ball to the table, tell us what they're thinking for 2025. I can't believe we're already up to that, to say the least. So let's get started. The big conversation, insights from 2024. Lou, take it away. What stands out to you about this past year when it comes to the state of the union, as we should say, for the interior design business?

LuAnn Nigara [00:02:53]:

You know, the state of the union of 2024 is it's been a hard year. It's been an up and down year. It's like, hey. Everything's gonna be fine, and what the heck happened? The rug just got pulled under me, which is significantly different than it's been bad every month. It's been very volatile up and down. And beyond that, what we have found is that the businesses that are basically 1.5 or 2,000,000 to, say, 10,000,000 have experienced that volatility. It's like good month, bad month, good good bad bad bad. Oh my god.

LuAnn Nigara [00:03:27]:

We got a good month. The businesses up to about 1,000,000 to 1.5 have been, a little more consistent, but I also think because they're technically in growth mode. Right? They're maybe not as mature a business, and so, therefore, the highs and lows aren't as noticeable because you're coming from a point where everything is kinda growth. So in a nutshell, yeah, it's been hard, folks. So if it's feels like it's been hard for you, you're not the only one is what I'm saying.

Rick Campos [00:03:57]:

So true.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:03:58]:

This is exactly why I wanted to have that conversation. Pull up a seat at the table because if you're feeling alone, hashtag you're not alone at all. We're here for it. Rick, give us your perspective out there on the West Coast.

Rick Campos [00:04:09]:

You know, I have a lot of designers through my coaching services, and I speak to designers at all different levels in the market. And, you know, I would say that 2024 has been a challenging year in the sense that designers are still busy. There's lots of opportunity. Designers are still doing great work. But I think there's this big question mark that's looming over everyone's head is, I'm doing alright right now, but what's next year gonna look like? It's really hard to look forward. It's really difficult to forecast right now because there's so many contributing factors. And so I think 2024 is just a very fuzzy year for design business owners, and you're not alone. I think everyone's feeling it in some capacity.

Rick Campos [00:04:49]:

And I don't really know what the answer is going to be. I don't know what is going to give us that clarity for next year. We're all waiting for that together.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:04:57]:

Yeah. I don't think it's gonna be the election, and we're recording this pre election, and this will air post election.

Rick Campos [00:05:03]:

Yeah. I'm not sure if it's the election or not. There's so many other contributing factors.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:05:07]:

Yeah. Jennifer, what are you seeing bringing us this global perspective coming in from Africa? We're so excited to have you on the show. What are you seeing on your continent, which could be very different than North America?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:05:19]:

Now I feel so happy.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:05:24]:

Well, silver linings abound. Take it away, Jennifer.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:05:27]:

Because I just thought it was just us. Yeah. I thought we were the only ones going through the downtimes and all that. It's amazing to know that it's happened all over, so it's not like peculiar to Africans or peculiar to Nigerian. So yeah. So I'm excited to let them know that it's not just you. Right? It's happened to everyone. Well, honestly, it's been a tough year.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:05:50]:

I think for us because of inflation and all that, you know, for us, we import most of the things. Right? So prices and things have gone up. The buying power has reduced. People want to DIY now. I don't know why.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:06:04]:

So Especially for those of us that do it full time. Who would do that for fun?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:06:09]:

So so it's getting frustrated, and you get people saying, what exactly do you guys do? I can do it myself. So but I I'm sure it's just because things are expensive now. Inflation rates has gone up. We have a new government now, so it's just a lot of chaos. But this year, not just interior designers, but I think for our country, it's really been tough for businesses. So yeah. So I'm excited. I'm happy that it's global.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:06:33]:

Well and just to hear you use the word inflation on the other side of the world is so refreshing because we have experienced that in the states in a very significant way. Oh, wow. We've experienced DIY has always been a thing, but then when you start adding inflation to it, that's something I wanna kind of tease out, it becomes an even bigger thing. Right? So Yeah. How much of our businesses do we feel like we're losing, or how much of our business do you feel like we're losing to DIY or that people are taking on and trying things that they wouldn't have, say, 2, 3 years

LuAnn Nigara [00:07:05]:

ago. Lou? So I have to say my neck of the woods with my experience up close and personal with Window Works, where it serves a luxury consumer, there's always gonna be a sector of people that will go and DIY it. But when you are firmly entrenched in the luxury market, what I find is the difference isn't so much that your consumer is now gonna do it themselves. It's more like your consumer who owns a mansion in Morris County and an apartment in New York City and the beach house at the Hamptons is only going to update the kitchen in one of those places instead of all of those places. And that's like a joke, but it's not a joke. Right? Like, it's there's times in, you know, years when they're like, hey, I've got projects going on at all 3. And you're like, I'm in my car. Let me keep coming.

LuAnn Nigara [00:07:49]:

You know what I mean? But what I find is to Jennifer's point with the inflation, you know, we were in our partner meeting here the other morning, and Vin was just reading the ride act to everybody. And he literally said, our sales are up 5% over 24 today to 23, but our operational expenses are up 29%. And he said, and that's things like raises on insurance, raises on gas, raises on things that we don't have control over. And so he said, guys, you can't make 5% more but cost 30% more. You've gotta make 30% more to be even. So that has been a big factor in the financial health of our businesses. And what I know is a lot of businesses don't track their expenses at that minutiae level where they can look at their team and say, our operational cost to be open is 29%. So they're going out every day.

LuAnn Nigara [00:08:51]:

They're not selling as many projects. They're not making as much money, and they just have this fear of what's wrong. Now because we have identified what's wrong, we haven't solved it, but at least we're not, like, what's wrong? We're like, this is what's wrong. We have to try and mitigate it. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:09:06]:

Well, Well, and I think that's interesting, Lou, because it goes back to what Rick was saying about it's just been a fuzzy year. It's been a very fuzzy year. I was even talking to a realtor down in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago on what's going on in that market. Like, that's a fascinating market. Right? Because they tend to lead the nation in many ways just being so housing dependent. And she's like, I've just never seen a year like this. I don't know if we're going o 8. I don't know if we're going 13.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:09:29]:

And I'm like, yeah. Are we headed for a recession? Are we headed for imminent growth? Nobody knows. And so, Rick, how do you coach, and what truth can you speak to the designers who are listening to this today about where do we go from here? I think that's the big question because it is hard to know, and I know that's a really hard question to answer. Let me just start out. I don't expect your crystal ball to magically appear, Rick, but kinda. Where do we go from here, and how do we position ourselves for success when Lou's talking about, hey. Operating costs are up 30%, but revenues are up 5. So we've got a fundamental math problem here.

Rick Campos [00:10:03]:

Yeah. You know, Katie, that is a big question. But the first word that came to mind as you were asking that question, and I wrote it down, was empathy.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:09]:

Mhmm.

Rick Campos [00:10:10]:

And so going back to the DIY really quickly, I think that DIY, I don't even really think it has a place in the conversation for professional interior designers. We have to constantly remind ourselves that we are a luxury commodity. We're working with luxury clients. And so, you know, with that being said, is DIY so much of a threat, especially in Southern California? They're their own market, and we are our own market. But

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:34]:

Well said.

Rick Campos [00:10:35]:

The inflation is real, and it does affect everyone. And so even if our customers are not saying that inflation is impacting them at the grocery store because maybe that's completely irrelevant to them, It is impacting them in other ways. Mhmm. And when they're making decisions about how to spend their money, they're being very, very calculated about that. And sometimes, we can't really relate to that or be as empathic as we could be because they have a lot more money than we do oftentimes. And so our decision making process when it comes to investing our dollars is different, but it is important to understand the process that our high net worth clients are going through when they're making decisions about budgets for their redesign, about budgets for furnishings and window coverings, and even construction costs.

LuAnn Nigara [00:11:20]:

Right.

Rick Campos [00:11:20]:

There's a whole strategy behind that that I think designers need to kinda learn more about and embrace a little bit more so that when they're having these conversations with their clients, it doesn't seem so much like pushback, but strategy.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:11:35]:

That's a very key differentiator. Just a follow-up question to that. What do you think is the number one way that you air on the side of that going well?

Rick Campos [00:11:44]:

I think it's about communication. You know, I think it's really about communicating with your clients and establishing that trust right out of the gate. Because if you do your part and if you establish that trust and you begin to build that long term relationship, which is what these projects are, you can have these conversations very gingerly. But you can have these conversations. And it's also about leveraging the other players on the team. Because Yeah. In my case, working on so many new construction projects when I was designing, I learned that the client is having a slightly different conversation with me as a designer as they are with their construction company and maybe even their architect. So kind of leveraging those players in the game and understanding where the client's coming from could provide some insight on what's really going on.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:12:30]:

I love that point because it doesn't matter how much money you have. People still need empathy. They still need to be understood. They still need to be seen as human, and we can provide that component that's invaluable. Right? They're not just filling a line item on our budget. They actually are struggling themselves to figure out where they're gonna put it. I love that point. Jennifer, speak truth into this situation from your perspective.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:12:52]:

Okay. So I would say we've lost most of our jobs, so we had to DIYs. However, that's good.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:12:59]:

Interesting.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:12:59]:

Because what's happening is they try it, they mess it up, they call us back.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:13:05]:

I know nothing of which you speak, Jennifer. So that's fine. So we'll start. Yeah. So that's fine.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:13:11]:

So you wanna DIY? Please go ahead and DIY because I assure you, you would mess it up.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:13:16]:

And when you come back,

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:13:17]:

you'll pay more. So I always thought that it's cheaper. It's cheaper to just hire us because it's just at the end of the day, we're there for something, and we're there to offer a service. Right? And you can't do it yourself. So I don't even know why we started DIYs in the first place because I don't think everyone is talented or gifted or I don't know, or that creative. Right? I feel interior design is something that has to be passion. Right? Not everyone can get it. So what happens is, they go to the store, they pick up all the things, put it together, and it's still not making sense.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:13:49]:

And they're wondering why it won't make sense because you just don't know how to do it. So, I think it's a plus. So, yes, let them go back doing themselves. Call me back, then I come back and I sort of do this.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:14:02]:

Yes. And we also sometimes at our firm add on what we affectionately call the PETA tax, but it's the pain in the Mhmm. Tax because let's just say, you probably know those clients are gonna be difficult, and they're gonna be up in every single part of it. And sometimes we don't even offer the PETA tax. We just decline. Yeah. Change. And there is no shame in that game.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:14:21]:

I'm just saying. Sometimes it's easier to stop before you start. Yeah. And that's okay too. Yeah. That's really okay too. As each of you is thinking about 2025, I can't believe like, I'm having a hard time even saying 2025. I'm like, are we really there? Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:14:36]:

We're really there, Katie. Like, I've gotta get on board with

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:14:38]:

that.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:14:39]:

What is the number one thing you're doing to position your firms, your businesses, your coaching? What are you doing to set yourself up? And I'm gonna keep coming back to Rick's term of fuzzy after a fuzzy 2024. Lou, what are you hoping to implement change? Obviously, like, we've got to deal with revenues versus operating costs for sure, and I think everybody's in that boat, and nobody likes to price high clients. But the reality is we're not in this. As I always remind my coaching clients, we're for profit. Yeah. And that's okay. As I always like to say, you're lovely and billable. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:15:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can be both. Exactly. So where do you go in 2025 with that? Like, for Window Works, and what is Vinnie thinking?

LuAnn Nigara [00:15:18]:

You know, we're, like, you know, balls to the walls. Like, we're just, like, always, like, no. We're not going down under on anything. Right? It doesn't matter. All three businesses are actively in October digging deep and doing 2 things. Lead gen and operational expenses are getting looked at with a fine tooth comb. And like we said to the team the other day, you know, we're not out of money next week, but you don't wanna be out of money in 6 months or a year, and that means you have to start now with the pedal to the floor on lead gen and the brake on expenses. And so a healthy business is always monitoring that and always doing that, you know, push and pull.

LuAnn Nigara [00:16:01]:

But right now, in October 24, we are, like, literally, consciously, like, doing all the things. In all three businesses, there is absolutely no, like, this has been hard. I wonder if it'll be better. It's like, okay. So this has been hard. We have to work harder. In not any of the 3 businesses, are we taking for granted that anything that particularly happened or worked before we have in Window Works, we have 42 years of data to show us the trends. And the truth is, the trend is that after 1 month, we're gonna come into our 3 slowest months, so we not only can't say, Hey, typically these months are gonna be good, so we're sitting and resting.

LuAnn Nigara [00:16:46]:

We absolutely know they're not the good months, And I would say design argue is the same thing. It's the same home industry. Like, once Thanksgiving comes, it's sorta like, alright.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:16:56]:

I'll see

LuAnn Nigara [00:16:56]:

you in January. So we've got 4 weeks till Thanksgiving. That's how we're looking at it in all three businesses. Let's get this thing going. So it's take no prisoners time, truthfully.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:06]:

I love that term, and it reminds me of that old Harvey Mckay networking book, dig your well before you're thirsty. Yes. By the time you're thirsty, that's not the time to start digging folks. And if you're not getting your accounting, if you're not getting your reports every single week of where your business is at, you are not running a business, a business is running you, and you will find yourself decorating and hanging curtains in your pit when you're broke because that's just not how to run a business. And if that's alarming to you or abrasive or harsh, I don't intend for it to be. It's just real. I feel like it's just very real. Rick, what would you add?

Rick Campos [00:17:41]:

Well, Lou Anne stole my answer. So

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:44]:

Sorry. Thank you. Hi, Kate. See, I told you I brought the brightest people to the table.

Rick Campos [00:17:50]:

Everything that Luann said, plus

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:52]:

Yeah.

Rick Campos [00:17:53]:

I think when when speaking to my coaching clients and even when looking at my own business as well, going back to my word fuzzy. I know that 24 has been a fuzzy year, and there's a lot of question marks. But I always encourage my clients, and I have to practice what I preach and not get bogged down with what's happening right now in the moment. Just kind of embrace what's happening in the moment. It's a cycle. It's a natural part of business. My advice, you know, to designers is to really look at what's working right now. Double down on whatever projects are profitable right now, this moment.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:18:23]:

I love that.

Rick Campos [00:18:23]:

Whatever's working for you and making your money, double down on that to cover your behind, and then open your mind to expansion and growth for 2025. Because I think what happens is that during the time like this, when there's all these question marks and there's all this gray area

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:18:40]:

Mhmm.

Rick Campos [00:18:40]:

That, you know, design business owners and entrepreneurs in general, they get a little nervous, and they're focused on what's happening now, and they're not projecting into the future. And you always have to be looking forward. So don't let this moment

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:18:52]:

Totally.

Rick Campos [00:18:52]:

Cloud what's happening, you know, the potential that is the future.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:18:56]:

I totally would agree with that. It's interesting being in the commercial world because to Luann's point of we only have, like, 4 weeks left until we're at the end of the year. We always sit back at the end of the year. I'm like, put on your seat belt because all of the deals happen at the end of the year. We gotta get the tax benefit. So I'm, like, well, we're all gonna have a great Christmas, but, buckle up because I'm gonna be calling you on the 26th probably. But it's interesting. Even last year, we saw that that didn't happen to the magnitude because of interest rates being where they're at.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:19:24]:

So we've got a half point cut. Right? We're coming into November. The Fed's gonna meet again. The leaked documents are showing it could be anywhere from a quarter to another half, so that's gonna be interesting to watch. But it's just on the commercial side, it's about what's gonna pencil, what's not gonna pencil. And so I wish I could have the Fed chairman in my hip pocket. Who doesn't? Right? Is that not the most ostentatious thing to say? But, really, it's just gonna come down to what makes the numbers work. Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:19:48]:

Jennifer, what are you planning for in 2025, having that, you know, view from another continent?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:19:55]:

Guess what I'm gonna do in 2025? Work life balance.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:20:00]:

I love that. Google will.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:20:05]:

So a lot going on, and I'm asking myself, like, what the hell do you think you're doing? So I don't think I'm the superwoman after all. So I think for me next year, we're gonna take you one at a time. We're going to slow down a bit and focus on what really brings in the money. Then the other aspect, the ones that don't bring in so much money, we can decide to collaborate with people or, like the factory, for example, that's giving me a headache. So I'm looking for people to collaborate and see how we can make it happen. Yeah. So I think for me next year is more work life balance because I noticed also that my employees are also overwhelmed. I think it's a reflection of me.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:20:51]:

So we're just going on and going and going and going. But also, I also believe it's not possible to have a work life balance, but I'll explain. I think you can juggle it, but I don't think it would ever be balanced. I didn't think so.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:21:06]:

Never. I always like to say it's like a rabid squirrel straddling Yeah. Like a barbwire fence. Like, it just never worked out. Be balanced. It's never quite right. It's never perfectly imbalanced. It's just because it's there when you twitch a little and you flop to this side a

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:21:20]:

little bit and you flop to that side. It's never perfect.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:21:22]:

I mean, let's be honest. If somebody's figured that out, please let me know.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:21:25]:

Yeah. So what I'm thinking is you can juggle it, or maybe we'll start thinking of how to sync it. So maybe yeah. So it'll be walk life sinking.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:21:36]:

I like that term a lot better. I feel like that's way more pragmatic.

Rick Campos [00:21:40]:

I like that too. I like that sink.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:21:43]:

Yeah. The sync for me is more like so take for example, if you wanna balance your work, maybe your spiritual life, family, and all that. Right? So I've started looking at things like, okay, take morning walks. I'm a Christian. I like to pray. So while you're walking, do your prayers. Right? So I don't have to walk first before I pray. So while I'm working, I'm multitasking, but I'm sinking.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:22:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I feel like sync is the 2.0 version of multitasking for Jennifer. Like, multitasking has such a bad rap, and your brain can't do whatever. But when you call it syncing, epiphany, new word.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:22:17]:

Yeah. New word. Oh, I'm listening to a podcast, and I'm walking.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:22:23]:

Just saying. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You can listen

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:22:28]:

to the podcast and walk, but you can't read a book and walk. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:22:32]:

No. There's audible for that. No. Yeah.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:22:34]:

Just an audible. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:22:36]:

You can just put Lou in your pocket, and then you just segue over to Rick's podcast. We just cycle through everybody and get the Yeah. What's going on in the world. Yeah. Okay. So speaking of 2025, let's talk about AI. Because Mhmm. The latest conversation I had with Gail, who love and adore, she said 75% of designers are not using AI in their business, which floored me because I'm officially hooked on AI.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:23:00]:

I've told our team if you're typing more than two lines of email and you're not putting it in chat gpt, then you're wasting my time and money of the company. Like, what are we doing out here? Like, just dump your concept and let it make it pretty. But I wanna hear your thoughts on that. How are you using it, and how do you see it changing 2025 for you? And I'm gonna go around the horn the other way this time and start with Rick. Mhmm. Because I would love to hear, Rick, what do you see and what are you hearing from the designers you're coaching about, what they're embracing, and also with the clients because now we have clients getting on board with this sometimes faster than designers and saying, like, well, look what I created. Well, that's great, but, like, that isn't actually structurally possible. Right? So how do we navigate that channel? Where do we go with that?

Rick Campos [00:23:40]:

Well, it's interesting that you bring the client into the conversation because the reality is oftentimes our clients are utilizing that tool as well and wondering why we aren't or wondering how we are utilizing AI in our business. So it's a very real question that we're asking each other as entrepreneurs and within the design community as well as a question that we're building with clients, you know, outside of design. I will say that the more designers are learning about how AI can help them with their business process, not the creative. So even I initially was like, oh my gosh. I don't like the sound of this at all. It sounds like, you know, there's gonna be a lot of copyright infringement and IP infringement and all these other things, which can happen, and it is happening.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:24:28]:

But Yeah.

Rick Campos [00:24:29]:

As soon as I began to listen to the conversations and realize there are so many ways that you can incorporate it into the back end of your business, Everything from crunching numbers to developing copy and all of those things. Yes. It generates imagery. And, yes, it does a pretty good job at it. But as far as I'm concerned, it is a tool for conceptual only. And if you utilize it correctly, it will remain that. Now Yeah. Everything has a potential of going rogue, and that's not something that we can control.

Rick Campos [00:24:59]:

But I think that 75% number is gonna change very quickly because there's a lot of people coming out of the woodwork having these conversations with designers about how it can be used properly for your business as a tool for efficiency and productivity. I think that number is gonna change really quickly. Like, by the next time we're talking, that number will have reduced. I'm sure of it.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:25:17]:

I like to say it's like a gateway drug, because once you start, you cannot stop. I mean, it's really bad. Like, even my husband's like, it does what? And I sat him down, and he's like, okay. Can you send me what that just created? Because I need that for work. And I'm like, uh-huh.

Rick Campos [00:25:31]:

But I think the important thing to remember is it's a tool. It's not a solution. It's a tool. That's how I see it anyway. And I think once you shift your perspective a little bit, it's easier to embrace.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:25:40]:

That's a great way to put it. Yeah. You think there's still a fear factor? Is that what you think is reading into that 75%?

Rick Campos [00:25:46]:

Totally. And I I'm part of that 75%, by the way. There are a lot of ways that I could be using it in my business. I mean, we're on a Riverside platform right now that has AI plugged into it. And Totally. If you scroll down to the bottom of the screen, it's already generating. It's capturing images of us. It's putting it into a template.

Rick Campos [00:26:01]:

It's ready for social media. Do I use any of that? No. I do not. Should I? Yes. And I probably will be, but right now I'm still in learning mode.

LuAnn Nigara [00:26:10]:

Listen. I think I didn't know that chat gbt was a minute old. I literally think I started using it the 1st week by coincidence. Because I am a huge early adopter. I'm like, wait, what's that over there? Oh, I'll try that. Let's go what is that? Right? And I was like, this is awesome. This is crazy pants. And then, you know, 5 hours later, my 88 d brain, I was like, oh, it's okay.

LuAnn Nigara [00:26:31]:

There's other things to do today. I was like all the way down in it. Right? The thing about it is is that the more you learn about it, like and I'm not talking about for imagery. I'm not an interior designer, you all know that, But I do not think I okay. First of all, let me just say it again. I have not used AI for imagery. Have not. Okay? But I am a writer.

LuAnn Nigara [00:26:54]:

I am an author. I use AI for my writing. So don't tell me that this is not my intellectual property because I asked for 3 points to blow up this point of view that I have. I still have to then put my point of view on those three points, and I gotta believe whether it's Jenna Gudusick or whoever else in our industry is leading the charge on this that is teaching designers how to use it from an image and conceptual place like Rick is talking about. Right? We were just at IDS conference. Right, Rick?

Rick Campos [00:27:28]:

Mhmm.

LuAnn Nigara [00:27:28]:

I sat in Jenna Gudusick's presentation on AI. As she's talking, I'm now buying the AIs that she's talking about with my computer in real time. Now I have been using chat gbt since the week it came out, but I had never paid for the pro version. Oh. And I'm gonna tell you

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:27:44]:

Game changer.

LuAnn Nigara [00:27:45]:

What happened. She described special gbt. So when you talk about Rick, like, okay, maybe somebody is a purist, and they don't wanna use AI for conceptual, for anything design related, then I would say take every architectural digest out of your house. I would say never go to a museum again. I would say never go to a showroom again because, you know, hey. If every idea has to be yours, sweetie, then stay home in your black room and come up with all the ideas because by the way Yeah.

Rick Campos [00:28:15]:

Turn off Pinterest.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:28:16]:

I thought I was harsh. Okay. I love this honesty.

LuAnn Nigara [00:28:20]:

Like, all I'm saying is get perspective. It's inspiration. It's concept. It's not stealing. Right? So anyway so the thing is that when she told us about special GBT, so when you talk about using it from your business standpoint, I believe designers, their superpower is designed. They should live in the design space. You wanna do it from 0 to 100 every step. Do you, girl? Do you, guy? I don't care.

LuAnn Nigara [00:28:47]:

You wanna take a little help? Whatever. But on the business side, so, like, creating blog posts so that you can have them put through as an SEO, and now instead of having a blog once every 100 years when you get around to doing it, you can do one once a month. Because you tell AI I have these four points of view on x y z, and here's what Jenna taught me about the special gbt that makes me crazy, and it's so exciting. In chat gbt, you can, in the paid version, do create a special GBT, it's called, and then they're called my GBTs. So I have a GBT that is called the making of a well designed business. What does this GBT do? This GBT helps me generate content solely from my book. That is the purpose of this GBT. What do I wanna upload? Oh, let me upload my book, and let me upload my brand description of my voice and tone and my point of view.

LuAnn Nigara [00:29:49]:

Those two documents that are in there, now I come over and I go, please search my book for a concept that I discuss on a designer charging their value and the risks when they don't. Oh, there it is. Boom. Because you know what I used to do? I used to pull my own darn book out.

Rick Campos [00:30:06]:

Looking for pull quotes and all the tabs.

LuAnn Nigara [00:30:10]:

Exactly. Like, I wrote it 7 years ago. I'm like, well, what did I say about charging your value anyway? So now the thing tells me what it is, and then I go, hey. That's awesome. Using just this document, my book, and my brand voice, create a solo episode based on this concept. Boom. Now what happens? I take it, I put it in a Google Doc, and I Luann it just a little bit more. But I'm gonna tell you what, the Luann ing in the Mhmm.

LuAnn Nigara [00:30:39]:

Special GBT when they're pulling from just my book versus the regular non paid GBT, night and day.

Rick Campos [00:30:46]:

Oh, for sure.

LuAnn Nigara [00:30:46]:

It's like my first draft. And so to waste your time, like, that's like when they invented calculators. Oh, I shouldn't use a calculator. I should get my pencil out, and I should do 16,000 calculations because it's not really my math if that machine did it for me.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:31:04]:

I love your honesty, Lou Anne. I am here for every single part of this. This is spot on, and I think it takes away that beer quotient when you say, look at how efficient and productive and what you can accomplish. Just go hug the porcupine if you're scared of it. Seriously, hug the porcupine. Get over it. Right. Try it.

LuAnn Nigara [00:31:21]:

Well and and not to cut you off, but, by the way, don't you put my book into your GBT? That's what I'm talking about. Gonna be cool with that. Right? We're talking about, I am using my own books.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:31:33]:

It's an 80 20 principle. You're still gonna have to do 20% editing, tweaking, or louyanning as you put it, but 80% of it is there, especially if you're plagiarizing yourself. It's not plagiarization. Get after it. Like, nothing is wrong with doing that.

Rick Campos [00:31:47]:

You're leveraging your own content.

LuAnn Nigara [00:31:49]:

There you go. Yes. That's what it is. You're just doing it faster. Right? And here's the other thing, the Perplexity AI. What I like about this particular AI versus, Chat GBT, and my partner, Steve Wishnow at EW told us about this a couple of months ago. Jenna also mentioned it I at IDS, is that when you just ask the perplexity something, it will cite you the sources. Right? So I was creating a presentation for Vinnie for the Sunshading Expo, and I was like, well, what is the global market look like in 2025 for, exterior product market? Because that's what they wanted to be.

LuAnn Nigara [00:32:28]:

And so I asked chat gbt and it gave me all this information. I was like, well, how do I know if that's right? So then I asked perplexity and it cites the things. And now just like if I looked it up in the old Funkin' Wagonals, I know who said it. And I can trust the source or I can say, well, that's a dumb source. I'm not gonna use that statistic. My brain is still engaged. I'm not just like, okay, on auto drive. Now I'm a robot, and I just do what the robots say.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:32:57]:

Yeah. So dead on. You hit on a really key point in there. It's not about having you do the work for you. It's about asking the better question. And our SEO guy said this to me, and he's like probably 6 months ago. And he's like, it's not that it is going to give you all the answers. It's about how good of a question you ask.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:33:13]:

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:33:14]:

And so it's changing instead of in Google where less is more. Right? The more you give chat, the more you give these AI tools, the better questions you ask, the better answers you're gonna get. And that is astounding. Are you using this, Jennifer? How do you see AI?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:33:29]:

So Chatgipity has been my best friend since it came out. Yeah. So it's brilliant as in it helped me to fire my HR. So recently, I just fired my HR because I was wondering, we're hiring people, and it's not making sense. Right? So I just went to chat GPT, and I said, I'm overwhelmed. I need to fire my HR. I need to know interview questions and selection processes for interviews and stuff like that, and it was brilliant. It gave me 3 stages of interviews to do.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:34:02]:

It gave me case studies for the interviews for the applicants. It gave me test questions. So there were 3 different stages. Right? And, honestly, by the time we did the case study and we did made them do the presentation and they did the interview test, we were able to select the best. So it's not the normal, just come for an interview. We'll ask you 1 or 2 questions. No. It's intent, and it was brilliant.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:34:26]:

Right? And I just saw my staff be like, oh, you're doing an amazing job. How did you do it? I just couldn't tell them it was Chargebee T.

LuAnn Nigara [00:34:34]:

Well, but you know what, Jennifer? 20 years ago, at least in the US, if that was something that was on my plate as a business owner, and I was concerned enough about it, I would've walked into the Barnes and Noble and said, a book on the best practices for hiring and firing. And then 30 years ago, I would've walked into the library for it. So what? Because I didn't leave my house and scroll a bookshelf? It doesn't count?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:34:58]:

Come on.

Rick Campos [00:34:58]:

It's gotta come from somewhere.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:35:00]:

Yeah. But Tractivity is honestly brilliant. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:03]:

Well, it is, and there's so many different ways. I think we're just beginning whenever we have the AI conversation, I always hear the little AOL AI conversation, I always hear the little AOL dial up, no, do do do do do do do do do do do do

LuAnn Nigara [00:35:12]:

do in the back

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:12]:

of my head because I feel like that's where we're at with AI. Right. We don't even fully understand that you've got mail. Like, Meg Ryan. Like, if you're old enough to get that context right, like, we're here for that right now of what it's gonna be for chat. And to watch that evolution and watch that happen is going to be simply breathtaking. I mean, we're talking about processes, and, oh my gosh, the processes that can be done with AI are insane. Like, if you don't like creating processes Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:40]:

Go look at Scribe.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:35:41]:

Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:42]:

Oh, my gosh. Just let it watch your processes. If you don't have a process library in your firm that you're allowing AI to watch what you do, that you can go create it, you're missing out, man. You are double paying because you're paying for your onboarding person Mhmm. Every single time Mhmm. To re explain this to someone else when you really just need to put them in front of a machine and say, here's the library. Go to it. I'll see you back in 5 hours.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:36:05]:

Is it gonna be the best 5 hours of your life? Absolutely not. But I'm not gonna pay double for it and write down your questions. Mhmm. We'll we'll spend 1 hour. No.

LuAnn Nigara [00:36:12]:

I just wanna put the pin on my, like, crazy rant is I'm literally standing by the things I said. I'm not like, well, what if somebody cheats, and what if somebody copies, and what if somebody like, you know what? If you're not a person with integrity, then we have bigger problems than AI. That's all I'm saying. This is using it for good.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:36:31]:

Yes, Rick.

Rick Campos [00:36:31]:

And to go back to, you know, my original statement about what designers are learning about it and the information that's being shared, Lou Anne and Katie, you both just clarified that by having this conversation about what you're putting into it impacts what you get out of it. The more we have that conversation, the more receptive I think designers are going to be to explore AI. That's what they're learning right now in this moment, even on this podcast is, oh, it's not about completely about what I get out of it. It has a lot to do with what I put into it. And that clarification, I think, is gonna

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:37:04]:

have a

Rick Campos [00:37:04]:

real big impact on how design business owners leverage AI in their business.

LuAnn Nigara [00:37:09]:

And if the only thing that someone chooses to use it for is the ways it can assist you in the business operations

Rick Campos [00:37:18]:

Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara [00:37:19]:

And not in design all day long. Really? Save 5 hours a week and put it towards designing from scratch. I've never used it for images. Like, that's your lane,

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:37:28]:

you guys.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:37:29]:

You know what I'm saying? But you don't need to to have it be extremely successful. I'm gonna give Jennifer the last word before we wrap it up. Jennifer?

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:37:37]:

AI is your friend. AI is not here to take away your job. It's here to assist you. So the minute you understand that, then life is easy. You don't have to have 50 staff. With AI, you can have a very small team and achieve very great results. Yes. So AI is your friend.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:37:54]:

love it. Y'all, this is why I wanted everyone to grab a cup of coffee, pull up a seat at the table, and share what's going on. We're gonna be back talking about this q one of 2025. It's gonna be fun to see where we're at. Election done, where are interest rates, what are businesses looking like, what are the metrics, and know that you're not alone in the struggle. We're here for the conversation. Thank you all for being honest and fair and vulnerable and real. I couldn't have asked for a better conversation.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:38:22]:

And by the way, happy birthday, Lou.

Rick Campos [00:38:25]:

Happy birthday, Lou Anne.

Dr. Jennier Chukwujekwe [00:38:26]:

Yay. Happy birthday, Lou.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:38:28]:

Thank you. Thank you for sharing it with us. We so appreciate it. Hey, everyone. Thanks for sticking around for the coaching corner, and there was a lot of conversation, and I believe it was a really good one. But if you're sitting here and you're beginning to think about 2025 and what it has in store for you and feeling a bit overwhelmed, I just wanna tell you you're not alone. I would say for the first five years of owning my firm, I was barely thinking about what needed to be done that day, that week, even the month, let alone the next year. That certainly wasn't on the radar.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:39:02]:

However, what I have learned after nearly 20 years of running a business is that you cannot steer a parked car. You've gotta figure out where you're going. And while the market will change and economics will change and different factors will come into play, at least you are setting your sights on a specific direction, and that is invaluable. Are you not sure how to do that? I wanna invite you to our premium channel where we are going to have an exclusive strategy session just as if you were in a strategy session with me 1 on 1 to talk about how do we actually do that while still allowing for life to happen. Make sure and click the link in the show notes to be invited to this premium channel and get this exclusive content. And that's the closing bell. I hope you've gathered valuable insight from our conversation today equipping you to thrive in your interior design business. Don't forget to hit that follow button to never miss an episode. And if you have burning questions or specific topics you're curious about, explore our episode library or better yet book a strategy session directly with me at colorworks.coach.