If you had the chance to shape what your days, weeks, months, and life looked like—would you go for it? Becoming an entrepreneur is perfect for when you want to do something differently, do it better, and just be who you are! It gives you such freedom. But, truth be told… it isn’t the perfect fit for everyone. And that's exactly what we're talking about in our first episode of Creating a Design Business Series.

Mark Bernheimer, one of my journalism mentors, joins me in this conversation. We jump straight into what you need to know and be prepared for as you enter the world of entrepreneurship. We also shine a light on the unexpected benefits of becoming a business owner and what it truly means to be happy. Whether you’re newer to business, just taking a peek to see if you like the idea, or have been in business for a couple years—this episode gives you a fresh perspective you can take with you into 2024!

In this episode, we cover:

• The basics of how to become an entrepreneur

• Why professional associations are so beneficial for new business owners

• Who entrepreneurship is great fit for

• The biggest unexpected obstacle of starting your own business

• What the biggest difference is between employees and entrepreneurs

• Worries Mark had about becoming a business owner that were actually non issues

• When to get a mentor and the benefits of having one

• Who you need on your team as a new business owner

• What to tell yourself on days where entrepreneurship feels hard

• How to reenter the workforce after being a business owner

• The best degrees to have for entrepreneurship

• Unexpected benefits of becoming a business owner

Have you ever thought of starting your own business? Mark and I would love to hear what stood out to you from this conversation—find us online and let us know your thoughts!

More about Mark Bernheimer, MediaWorks Resource Group

Mark is the founder and principal of MediaWorks Resource Group, a media training and crisis communications company he started after finished his news reporting career at CNN. Back in the day, Mark covered many of the major news events of our time, including the Monica Lewinsky scandal and subsequent impeachment of President Bill Clinton, the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation, the Columbine school shooting, and the Oklahoma City bombing trials of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Bernheimer was one of only a handful of reporters inside the courtroom when O.J. Simpson took the stand during his wrongful death civil trial. And during the late ‘90s, Bernheimer weathered five hurricanes on live national television. Now he calls upon those experiences to help CEOS, athletes, politicians, and A-list entertainers nail their news interviews and public presentations.

Connect with Mark Bernheimer

MediaWorks Resource Group 

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This episode is sponsored by DBM Consulting.

DBM Consulting is our go to partner for exploring cutting edge software and technology, from strategic analysis reporting to custom software development and integrations. Visit dbm.consulting/colorworks to quality for a promotional rate and receive a free 30 minute consultation.

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More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:00.382)

Hey Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark (00:01.908)

Thank you. Good to be with you, Katie.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:04.354)

It's so fun. We have been dying to have this conversation for the longest time, because even though we're in separate industries now, uh, starting out and striking out on your own is a bit of a thing. So without further ado, was it what you expected?

Mark (00:20.02)

I didn't know what to expect. I was a reporter for the first, well, now it's about the first third of my career. And I was raised in a liberal arts family with a writer as a father and a child psychologist as a mother. And so I didn't know anything about business whatsoever.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:22.048)

Yeah.

Mark (00:43.328)

After 16 years of covering the news and running around as a reporter, I knew a lot about journalism. I knew how to be a good reporter. I knew absolutely nothing about running a business. And even today, I consider myself a pretty good media coach and a pretty good consultant, which is what I do. But I still think I'm a terrible business person. I just, everything that I can possibly learn from others and people who know more about this than I do, or maybe even went to business school.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:51.202)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:01.559)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:07.458)

Yeah.

Mark (01:12.14)

I absorb that like a sponge and just work to sharpen that end of what I do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:12.474)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:17.674)

I love your honesty in that because I feel like there's so many people listening to this who can absolutely relate. Like I'm a brilliant designer, I can design beautiful plans, but oh my gosh, give me a business plan instead of a design plan and I'm getting super melty about that. Because it is a whole other world. It's a whole other thing when you strike out on your own, it's very much putting on a bunch of different hats. And let's be honest, some fit better than others.

Mark (01:40.436)

Absolutely, and it goes down to being smart enough to know what you don't know and bringing out experts who do know those things. I don't know anything about SEO. I know very little bit about marketing, but I have people who work for me who know a lot about that stuff and very little else, and I'm very happy to pay them to take over those functions for me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:44.759)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:50.515)

Yeah.

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:01.11)

That's funny. I often joke about that. I hire people who are way smarter and way more capable than me. And then I let them do what they need to do. And they know it. If you're starting out on your own, thinking back, when you struck out on your own, what if someone is saying,

Mark (02:05.92)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:15.858)

I hear you, but I'm not sure I can afford all those people out of the gate. How do I, how do I get started? And this brings me back to like when I first started, I remember toddling into my first client and I had all these fan decks, literally in a cardboard box. And I was coming in to specify their color and that whole fake it till you make it part. I felt like a complete fraud. Yeah.

Mark (02:19.461)

Yeah

Mark (02:30.858)

Yeah.

Mark (02:36.616)

You know what's so funny? Yeah, I was going to say exactly that, fake it till you make it. It's a cliche, but it's absolutely true. I remember the first time I ever called anyone after I had launched my website. I don't know if I was trying to pitch business, which, by the way, in my business doesn't work very well, or if I was just trying to make a contact with somebody. But I left a message for them saying, it's Mark Bernheimer with MediaWorks Resource Group.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:43.75)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:51.469)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:56.803)

Sure.

Mark (03:04.616)

First time I'd ever said that sentence in my life and I totally felt like a fraud. I just made that up. I just made that company up out of thin air. And now 22 years later, yeah, now it really is a company. But the first time, yeah, you're going to feel that way and you should embrace it and deal with it and understand that everybody does. And if you can't, I mean, I don't know how you feel about this, but when I was up and coming.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:14.926)

and now how many years later? Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:26.877)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (03:31.9)

it was really beneficial to hook myself up with professional associations that might have me mingling with other hungry business people who did the stuff I didn't, maybe work out some sort of a trade or at least have lunch with those people and then you get to sort of, you know, when you're starting out, you know, you're going to have to find somebody who's as hungry and scrappy as you but who specializes in what you don't.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:36.663)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:41.014)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:57.158)

It's so true. And I think especially as designers, we tend to hang out in, oh, I'm a part of IDS, or I'm ASID, or we stick with our known acronym alphabet soups, right? When in all reality, that's the last thing we need. You need to march down to your local chamber, and you need to find out who's doing, to your point, all the things that you can't do and start building that network or march into that online community forum that you don't feel comfortable with. And I think that's so much of it. I remember feeling, yes, one, like a fraud.

Two, it was a lesson in grit and perseverance because

You're pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone all the time. And that's one thing I think I would say to entrepreneurs, if you're thinking about striking out on your own, you have to be comfortable with the idea of pushing outside of yourself all the time and get used to hanging out in that space. If that's uncomfortable for you, and that's what we're trying to figure out through this next mini series, I would say stay at the firm that you're at and do what you love to do and don't worry about all the rest of that. But if you wanna get out there and you enjoy being out of your comfort zone and to your point, learning, constantly absorbing.

seeing what you don't know, finding the people that do, then it might not be a bad idea to strike out and give it a whirl.

Mark (05:09.324)

I agree and I think that if you want to strike out on your own there are some wonderful potential benefits to that and some pitfalls. And the number one pitfall is going to be a chronic sense of discomfort to one degree or another. You're breaking out on your own, right? Yeah. I mean the most obvious form of discomfort is not knowing where your money is coming from next month.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:17.474)

for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:26.142)

Underline italicize bold that statement right there. Yeah

Mark (05:36.236)

I remember when I started, again, going back to talking to people who know more about this than you do. I had a friend of mine who had broken out on his own several years before I did. We had worked together in the news business. He was a news photographer and he started a production company. So I went to him right away to ask him. He was very and still is extremely successful. Not all of them are. He really was and is. And I said to him, this was the first year of my business, I said, it's great. It's showing great promise.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:47.48)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:51.989)

Nice.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:03.64)

Hmm.

Mark (06:06.4)

I did really well this month, but it's weird because I never know how I'm going to do the next month and I'm always a little bit anxious about that. And he said something I'll never forget. He said, that never goes away. And 22 years later, I can confirm it never goes away. No matter how well you're doing one month. And here's the other thing. I don't know if you've noticed this, Katie.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:22.624)

Yep. So true.

Mark (06:32.36)

When you're doing really well, you never think you're going to slow down. And when you're slow, you never think you're going to pick back up again. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:37.27)

Ugh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:41.722)

It's so absolutely true because willing to your point when it is all when it is all hinging on you and it all depends on you There's a burden that comes with that Especially as you start bringing on that seo expert and bringing on additional people that and you're like I have bills to pay Like how does that actually work? You're right. You never actually know. I mean you want to build your pipeline But there's also so many factors as we're seeing right now in the economy changing things the huge slowdown We've seen in housing nobody wants to buy a house at eight percent interest rates

Mark (07:11.016)

Right, right, right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:12.916)

That was a really good spot to hang out in. And so it is hard when you have those environmental elements that you can't control. And planning for a rainy day, I think that's the hugest part of entrepreneurship, is you may not know what's coming next, but plan for your rainy day because it comes to everybody, right?

Mark (07:20.539)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (07:31.848)

Yeah, and you're again, you're underlining and italicizing the discomfort element of it. And if you have a steady paycheck and you work for a company that's doing well, you have some security that you won't necessarily have when you're out on your own. But you can, things can always change for a company too. I mean, you can always find yourself pink-slipped. I always say that I can be laid off too. I can lose my job too. It's just that it's going to take me about a year to figure that out.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:37.228)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:43.575)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:03.678)

Funny not funny. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Mark (08:05.351)

I'm not going to find out on a Friday afternoon. It's going to take a while. So there's different, there's dueling discomfort in both lifestyles. And I'm curious to know how you feel about one versus the other because I've learned as I've gone through both now, working for corporations and being on my own, I know you have.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:14.625)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:26.186)

Right there with you. Yep.

Mark (08:29.96)

Some people are absolutely cut out for running their own businesses others. Many of them are my clients say I Admire that you get to work for yourself and you're the only person you have to work for but I could never do that It really takes the right personality, right? Do you find that? Do you think you're cut out for this life as opposed to the old one?

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:47.583)

I think it's...

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:52.402)

Well, I don't know if my opinion matters, but my husband lovingly told me the other day you could never go back to working in an office environment. And I said, it's 100% true. We were in a big office building walking through and there was just a part of my soul that was just, it's just, it's heaviness and weight. I was just like,

Mark (08:58.088)

Yeah, right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:10.978)

40 hours a week in here, I die, right? And more than, that's from a designer who's like, this is a beautiful building, there's tons of glass, beautiful architecture, but it just felt so soul-sucking to me because at the end of the day, and I don't know if anybody listening feels this way, but when I was in that environment, I didn't feel like I could effectuate the change that I wanted to in the way I wanted to and solve the problems that were right in front of me that had very easy solutions because either nobody was listening,

Mark (09:14.25)

Yeah.

Mark (09:24.596)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:41.132)

priorities it's the way we'd always done it which is a classic much like that fabulous story of grandmother's ham three generations later the granddaughter says to the mother why do we cut off both ends of the ham and they trace it up the family line grandma didn't have a pan big enough so now the whole family just got in the habit of whacking off both ends of the ham which we're fine right there were so many things like that for me in a corporate environment that it just became something

Mark (09:58.295)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:06.206)

where I just couldn't function in that way anymore. How did it feel to you? What was the tipping point for you?

Mark (10:11.648)

Well, really scary. The tipping point for me was probably where it was for you in journalism, just that I felt I had done everything I could do. The job that I had, unlike the one that you left, you want to talk about soul sucking. Working for a television network, a global network, means that you pretty much owe every minute of your day to that company. And I was just, I was traveling all the time. And I would be getting back.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:25.138)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:34.998)

They own you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:39.51)

Mm.

Mark (10:40.948)

I remember vividly covering three hurricanes, one after another on the East Coast and the Gulf and coming back after standing in those hurricanes looking like an idiot doing live shots. I get home, I'm unpacking my bags and looking forward to an extended weekend that they promised me. And then there was a plane crash, a plane crash in Montana. And I had to get to LAX and get back and, you know, there was never a time that my time truly was my own.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:46.198)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:56.546)

For sure.

Mm. Mm-mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:05.059)

Mm-mm.

Mark (11:09.34)

You can do that for four years, five years, if you're young. And especially I didn't have a family, I didn't have a family, it's okay. Beyond that, it's too much and I couldn't see making a career out of it, I really couldn't. And so going out on my own was a big risk and a gamble, but I didn't really see a very positive alternative to it. So I was in it to win it, and I was very lucky that it worked out.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:12.094)

Sure. In your 20s and 30s, yeah. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:35.262)

I'm so in the same boat. So in a prior life, we haven't disclosed this to our listeners yet, but, um, I come from a bit journalism background as well, which is fun. So in fact, Mark was a mentor of mine for, I don't even know how many years, which is why I'm so glad it's so fun to have you on the show.

Mark (11:48.508)

Yeah, don't say how many years, even if you can remember. Ha ha ha.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:51.21)

I know it's like birthdays. We stopped counting after 39, right? Promise. But yeah, it became something where when you want to do something differently and you want to do something better and you want to just be who you are, I'll never forget the conversation one time. It was like I wasn't in the room and everyone was discussing what hair color I should have. And I just wanted to stick up my hand and say, I have to wear it? Can we have that conversation for just one hot minute? And coming out of that,

Mark (12:08.424)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:17.618)

It really, sometimes you have to go low to go high. And what I mean by that is sometimes you just have to get to that point where psychologists call it uncomfortably uncomfortable. You can live uncomfortable a long time, but when you get uncomfortably uncomfortable, change happens and there becomes a change agent. And for you, yeah, getting called out to that.

plane crash in Montana, uncomfortably uncomfortable. And you start thinking to yourself, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And now whatever could go wrong out there by my going out on my own seems far less daunting than what I'm dealing with right now in this situation. I'm good, thanks so much, goodbye. And it's a big point.

Mark (12:53.705)

Yeah.

And one of the things you and I have in common is that neither one of us are big fans of giving control to somebody else. And whether it's controlling your hair color or controlling every minute of your schedule, that's onerous. And so for us, and I can speak for myself certainly, the idea of working for myself was even more appealing, I think, than it is for somebody who works on nine to five.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:04.363)

What do you mean, Mark Bernheimer? Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:20.238)

for sure. 100% and I love we've talked about a lot of the things so far in this episode about just like the hard things and what you need to know what you need to be prepared for but I will say the idea of shouldering paying out the people on my team is far less daunting to me knowing that I get to choose the direction and steer the ship so to speak then living under someone else's thumb.

Mark (13:41.214)

Yeah.

Mark (13:46.938)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:47.198)

Like living under that type of environment feels claustrophobic and just feels almost like a waste of my very existence. Like it really affects me at the core of who I am. I want to go ahead.

Mark (13:58.152)

Yeah. Well, I was going to say, you have the right DNA for this, and I do too. And again, there are people who don't. There are people who go out on, you've met a lot of them who go out on their own for two, three years. That was fun. I think I could have made it if I wanted to stick with it. Too nerve wracking. I need the consistency and the dependability of the paycheck. I'm going back.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:06.186)

And that's totally fine.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:19.884)

Yep.

I think there's a, and there's no shame in that. It's figuring out who you are, which is what I'm constantly coaching too. There's so many businesses that talk about scaling or getting out on your own and hanging out your own shingle is the piece de resistance, right? Not necessarily. You have to find what works for you. You don't have to grow your business any bigger than your lifestyle dictates or that you want. You don't even have to have your own business. And we need to give ourselves permission to figure out who we are because that's when you're happiest is when you figure out

Mark (14:22.764)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:50.656)

How do I work and being okay with that and not listening to the chatter going on around you about oh Are you ever gonna start your own firm? Oh, you're still working for such-and-such that shouldn't matter Are you happy at the end of the day? And if not, what do you need to change to get there? Whatever that looks like in your life Let me

Mark (15:05.756)

Yeah. Life's too short. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:08.938)

Oh, yeah. After how many years of friendship we can both say life, this thing is flying by. I'm just saying it's way too short. I want to talk about the things that you on the flip side were worried about in striking out on your own. That may have actually been a non-issue that could be holding people back who might be listening to this and going, I'm really worried about this and this and this. And you can say, yeah, me too. But it ended up being not a thing. Ironically, is there anything like that?

Mark (15:16.146)

Yeah.

Mark (15:36.992)

Great question, one that I haven't given a lot of thought to, but I can tell you that I was, we can go back to the, we can go back to the imposter syndrome, the feeling like a fraud. These people are going to know that I'm brand new to this. They're going to know that I've never worked for a company this big before, for a client, right? They're going to see right through me, but it didn't happen. It really didn't happen. I, yeah. I connected.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:40.77)

Totally honest.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:49.109)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:55.104)

Mm. For sure. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:02.451)

Oh, I love, I love that it didn't happen part.

Mark (16:06.612)

Probably the smartest thing I think I did in retrospect was connecting with people, old people in the business who were doing media training in Los Angeles. And by the way, now I'm approaching what their age was then. Not yet, not yet. And when I do, I'm out. Yeah, yeah, when I do, I'm out. But anyway, I learned the craft through people who had been doing it for almost, for as long as I've been doing it now.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:19.254)

Are you becoming one of them? Not yet, I didn't think so. Who thought that was a good idea? I'm out.

Mark (16:36.84)

picked up the tips that I thought were effective, discarded the ones that I didn't think I wanted to engage with when I did my training. And I think that it's fair to say that none of my clients figured it out. I mean, they probably figured out I didn't have a huge book of business to refer them to as references, but I think the training product that I provided was such that they didn't see through it. They didn't see through it. And one day I woke up.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:50.114)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:54.614)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:00.767)

Yeah.

Mark (17:03.012)

and I really did have experience and I really did have references and lots of clients.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:04.151)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:07.934)

And I really was a grownup, as I like to say. You actually had it dialed in. I think that's such a really valid point, in that we can think up 100 reasons why we shouldn't do something. Oh, I don't have a robust portfolio, which we're going to talk about in this miniseries. Or I don't have that.

Mark (17:10.154)

All right. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:24.45)

billions of referrals or I signed a non-compete with my current employer. What do I do now? Because I want to use my portfolio. There's a hundred reasons, but there's also a hundred workarounds. And I think one of the big ones that you just alluded to as a mentor or someone who has gone before you, you do not have to have your machete out and be hacking your way through the forest of what you don't know. Go find somebody who's gone ahead of you and paved the way and start getting in their footsteps and seeing how they're doing what they're doing. Um,

Mark (17:29.658)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:54.504)

that for me during my journalism career was so great to be able to pick up the phone and call you and say, Mark, what does this mean? Or Mark, what about that? Or what about is I think it's true in any profession, finding those people that have gone ahead of you and have already invented the wheel so you don't have to.

Mark (18:09.212)

One thing I agree completely, one thing that I would recommend is find somebody you respect who was in the business or knows a lot about the business. Sometimes when you contact somebody who's in it, if it's a competitive business and you're in the same market, they may not share everything they've got with you. I get calls, you know, I get calls probably, I don't know, two, three times a year from journalists who have either just left TV news jobs or newspaper jobs or

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:17.09)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:22.194)

In the, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:28.295)

a great point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:37.122)

Hmm.

Mark (18:38.22)

are about to and want to pick my brain about being a media trainer. And I have mixed feelings about that, especially the ones who call me from Los Angeles. I'm not necessarily interested in training the next generation of my competitors, right? And so I'm very polite and I always call them back. I never ignore those calls. I tell them the basics of what they need to know. I also tell them that this isn't a great time to get into the field that I'm in. I'm lucky that I have a history and a lot of

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:46.82)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:55.89)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:05.14)

Yeah.

Mark (19:08.2)

still working with me, I wouldn't want to be starting being a media trainer today. But in any case, I'm not going to tell them everything I know. I'm just not going to do that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:09.816)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:16.255)

Yeah.

Well, I feel like so many markets, whether you're in media or design, they're changing so rapidly right now. Given what we've been through with COVID, now we have 8% interest rates. We've also have immense global unrest. It used to be pockets of the world, I felt like took turns. Nobody's taking turns anymore, it's all fair. You want Russia, you want China, you want the Middle East, like just pick your spot, right? So you have all these variables that are causing massive shifts at any different time that affect us all very differently. And...

Mark (19:33.737)

You didn't... Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:46.794)

You know, it's interesting, like you can say, oh, it doesn't affect me. And, you know, to dot whatever state, right? But the reality is it really, really does. And it kind of goes back to that point of make sure that you are planning for your rainy day and that you have what you need. Um, emotionally, how did you.

Mark (19:59.656)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:04.458)

I don't want to say pep talk, but how did you become your own hype man for going out on your own? Because I think that's the hardest thing. When you do strike out on your own, sometimes there's not somebody else there saying, get it, this is a great idea, you're going to do fabulous, dig in, you've got this and make it happen. What did you tell yourself?

Mark (20:23.456)

What I told myself was my options were limited. I knew that the career for which I had trained for up until that point, the entirety of my professional life was no longer an option for me. I didn't want to be a reporter anymore. And so, OK, if you're not going to be a reporter, the thing you've trained for, what can you do with that body of knowledge and experience that you've built up if not reporting? And this was the perfect avenue. And I kept telling myself,

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:26.998)

Mmm.

Mark (20:52.732)

You haven't done this before, but you have the credentials to do it. You have better credentials than a lot of people who are doing it now. So tell yourself that. I mean, if it happens to be true, remind yourself that just because you don't have the experience doesn't mean you're not going to get, you know, great success when you start the business.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:13.514)

I think that's so incredibly powerful, the believing that you can. And here's the other thing. You go out and you mentioned it earlier. Sometimes people go out for two or three years, they pull back.

that is totally fine to do. Just because you go out on your own doesn't mean you can't ever go back to a firm. In fact, I think those people are more valuable coming to a firm because then they have at least some business acumen and understanding of, oh, this is why we're not doing that marketing piece because the ROI isn't there, or we're not ready for a rebrand because that would have to cascade through not just changing an email signature. It's every business card, every billboard, every sign on our, wherever we've set up.

up camp right like there's just a different level of awareness and I actually think that's a value add so don't let that stop you from giving it a shot and if it doesn't work out the way that you want to that's okay as we always I tell my children this all the time but failure is only failure when you refuse to stand back up again

Mark (22:08.404)

Totally true. Be prepared for it. Be prepared for little setbacks. If the setbacks mount or you decide that the emotional or psychological toll this endeavor is taking on you exceeds the potential benefit, then it's time to cash in and go back. I also think that it's important to accept where you are in life. If you have dependence, if you have six weeks worth of savings

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:33.249)

Yes.

Mark (22:38.588)

Launching a brand new business may not be the smartest move. Maybe wait until you have a little more saved or a little bit more experience in your field. I also think that coming from the corporate world is always a great place to get the experience you need to start out on your own. I'm sure you agree. I have more faith, let's not say faith.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:52.184)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:59.234)

Totally.

Mark (23:05.644)

I have higher expectations for people who start businesses after leaving a corporate environment than I do those who either don't go to college at all or go to college and right away try to start their own businesses. Great if you can make that work. I totally support that. But I think your chances are better if you transition. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:07.862)

Sure. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:22.186)

Yeah. Oh, significantly.

120%. I mean, that's what's interesting. That's what led me to get my MBA because I knew I needed the business side. Um, there's a lot of what we lovingly called jobbiest where it's really just a hobby, but we call it a job, but it's not actually generating revenue. So we jobby. Well, jobbing is fine if you are independently wealthy, but the rest of us have bills to pay. So how do we transition that into an actual bona fide income?

Mark (23:33.357)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (23:39.816)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark (23:50.906)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:56.528)

only for you, but anyone else that you have on your team and your dependents and all of that. Yeah, to your point, it's probably gonna go a lot better for you if you can go out there, have that experience in that corporate environment, go get the degree in business, or find the mentor that can, it doesn't even have to be in your industry. Find the business mentor, find somebody who's rock solid in business and can say to you, yeah, you know, you really shouldn't set up yourself as a corporation, you're gonna pay double taxes out of the gate, you should start with an LLC. And you go, oh.

Really? I mean, that's the mantra of my 40s. Tell me what I don't know. What am I missing in this, right? And so go find those people. I just think it makes such a difference.

Mark (24:32.272)

Yeah, and people who are starting out today have an advantage that you and I didn't when we started, which is called YouTube, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, the body of knowledge that you can gain, you can get an informal college degree just by spending enough time on the right channels on YouTube and learning a craft, learning a trade. Yeah, I mean, the knowledge is out there and it's free and it's accessible.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:38.438)

Oh, so many YouTube social media. We didn't have any of that back in the day.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:46.594)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:53.603)

for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:01.014)

Well, and I think that brings up a key point about entrepreneurs. It comes back to grit. Do you really want it? Are you willing to sacrifice for it? Like, even just, and you can say, oh, but Katie, you have like this incredible firm and everything's great. And like, what people don't see is Halloween night, trick or treated with the kids, handed out all the candy, did all the things, got everybody to bed. I still had 2 and 1 half to 3 hours of work that needed to get done.

Mark (25:27.315)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:27.434)

before we could roll into November 1st effectively as an organization. And that just had to get done. So if you're like, never in a million years, and then if you're like, oh, well, yeah, if I can pour myself a little gin on the rocks and sit down with my laptop in front of the fire and chisel this out, which is exactly what I did, then, yeah, my wine days are gone. I'm too old to have the carbohydrates and soda. We're just down to the pure stuff.

Mark (25:33.483)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (25:45.728)

The gin on the rocks, wow, that's creative.

Mark (25:55.377)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:56.142)

Um, but I mean, literally, but like part of me really enjoys that because there's this great book called deep work. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's the idea that when we can push everything else out of the way. And you could sit in quiet and not have the phone ringing, which I love that it doesn't ring at 9 PM, unless it's an emergency, if you can get the people out of your house or to bed and do all this stuff, you have space to come up with thoughts you've never had.

Mark (26:15.625)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:23.766)

before and when you can get into that zone, it is amazing what you can accomplish. That zone doesn't hit me at 9 a.m. I am not a 9 a.m. er and so to be able to come back to that, if that excites you and you're listening to this, then you should think, oh, maybe entrepreneurship is in the cards for me. But if you know, get sitting down at 9 o'clock p.m.

Sounds like a much better deal to you. I love the flexibility of that. And that kind of leads me to my next set of questions I wanted to ask you. What were the unexpected benefits you discovered going out on your own that you're like, this is pretty much a sweet spot that I didn't see when I decided to hang out my shingle.

Mark (26:50.505)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (27:04.912)

Boy, I have to say, I think most of the benefits that I had were anticipated and hoped for. I wanted the freedom. I wanted the income. The income in my first year of running my business was equivalent to what I made my last year working for a company. And then every year after that, it went up. So the income was great.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:13.607)

Mm, hope for is a great word.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:30.286)

That's awesome. That excites me.

Mark (27:34.908)

the freedom. I expected it. I suppose I didn't expect.

Mark (27:42.864)

I guess I probably didn't expect that it would come so quickly and stay. I was always in the back of my head thinking, well, I can always go back. I can always find a job again if I have to. Or maybe I can do a part-time job and run a business on the side if I need to. There can be a lot of things that I can do to help me get back to work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:49.228)

Mmm...

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:54.582)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:00.806)

No, you could have easily gone back. You were very much in demand.

Mark (28:05.012)

There came a moment and I can't tell you exactly when something flipped the switch flipped and maybe it was reviewing You know my tax returns, but I just said I don't think I have to go back I don't think I'm ever gonna have to go back again. And that was an amazingly Freeing moment, you know

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:13.987)

Ha ha!

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:22.138)

Mm, that's a beautiful moment to be able to have. Did you think to celebrate, or did you go out to dinner, call your mom and sisters? Or was it just like this internal moment of deep satisfaction and understanding? Did you? Oh, I love that.

Mark (28:31.056)

You know, I wrote an email to my mother, and I'll tell you why, because she's the reason I have this business. When I was, when I was, when I left CNN, and I was trying to figure out what to do next, I knew I didn't want to be a reporter anymore. I knew that I didn't really want to go to a PR agency and, you know, work for a PR firm, because that would, the amount of work I would have to do there would be at least as much as the work I was doing running around the country.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:41.932)

Yeah.

Mark (29:00.)

the country as a reporter. I wanted a break from that. My mother sent me a clipping from the Los Angeles Times. It was a feature story about a subspecialty of PR called media training. At that time, it was a rare and exotic specialty of PR and most people didn't know what it was. And there were, it was an article featuring some of the people that I referred to earlier in this interview

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:07.19)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:14.27)

No, she didn't.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:21.772)

Hmm.

Mark (29:29.928)

you know, doing it very successfully in Los Angeles. I picked up the phone, I called them up. I said, hey, my name is Mark, I just left CNN. I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help you, to work with you. And both of them said, sure, it would be wonderful. So what I ended up doing was going to work for them. There's a parable here for I think a lot of other people in different fields, but I went to work for them.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:33.567)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:44.77)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:55.465)

Yeah.

Mark (29:57.088)

I was the one holding the microphone, doing the interview drills, which is what is the cornerstone of media training. I was sort of the interview monkey for them. And then they would give all the feedback to the client, here's what you should have said, here's where you went wrong, what have you. I was paid $250 a day when I worked for those people. And one day, one of them...

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:01.687)

Mm. Sure.

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:13.165)

Yeah.

Mark (30:22.876)

I hope she's not watching. One of them was going through some notes to give me to help me prepare for the media training. And she accidentally flipped by the invoice that she was going to give the client. And I was making $250. And let's just say the invoice was a multiple, a large multiple of that. And I thought the minute I saw that invoice, I said, I am never doing this for anybody else again. And that's when I went home.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:24.61)

Hahahaha

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:30.561)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:35.476)

Oh.

Mark (30:52.288)

started working on the website, launched, put the shingle up, all because of mom. So going back to the beginning, yes, when I got that realization that this was my life now, I owe it to mom. I owe it all to mom.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:59.918)

That's a great story.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:05.482)

Oh, that is so sweet. Did she pick up the phone and call you or what was her response?

Mark (31:08.532)

Oh yeah, no, she was, yeah, she's always been ecstatic and my best, you know, biggest supporter is mom's, uh, often are.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:16.574)

Yeah, I totally agree. It's been great to watch your mom. I've seen her in your Facebook feed and your sister's there. It's like the best posse around you. I feel like you all are your own hype people. It's really sweet to be able to see. I'll get this call from Mark. Yeah, I'm sorry to return your call. I was at brunch with my mom and sisters. I'm like, no judgment. I wish I was at lunch or brunch with my mom and sister right now. That sounds fabulous. Oh my gosh. Oh, that's too good.

Mark (31:20.781)

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Mark (31:32.491)

You're right! Yeah...

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, well now that we don't all live together, we get along just fine. Yeah. Yeah, right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:43.758)

Yeah, isn't that funny how that works? I have the same hope for my children. Maybe when you grow up, this will all work out okay. I'm just saying. Any other unexpected things that came out of this good or bad that you wish you could go back to and sit the Mark Bernheimer who had just left CNN down and say, this is gonna be great or heads up, you should know about this and you don't see it coming.

Mark (32:08.7)

No, I would just say humility is key. Reaching out to everyone you think who might be able to help you, whether they're in the field that you wanna get into or not. Capitalize on their expertise. My neighbor when I launched MediaWorks was a business professor at UCLA, and I showed him my rate card. I said, does this rate card make sense? If you were a company, would you balk at this? And should I give a discount here? He reviewed it and gave me his feedback.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:12.478)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:18.963)

Mm-mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:22.761)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:28.814)

Hmm... Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:34.434)

Great idea.

Mark (32:38.428)

you know, find people that as we started this conversation, find people who know more about individual things than you, especially if they will deliver that information to you for free or for the cost of lunch or a drink and take advantage of it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:40.351)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:52.914)

I so agree. And just I almost want to say it sounds a little strong, but get over yourself and get over your fear. If you're listening to this and you know that like all of everything Mark and I are saying is resonating with you and you're like, that's exactly how I feel. That's exactly how I operate. I can relate to every part of this. Just do it. At the end of the day.

Just go out there and do it. You cannot have a crystal ball. We don't know what the future holds, whether it's for our personal health or whether it's for the state of the global events or whatnot. But at some point, each of us had our tipping point of, I can't do this anymore. And whatever is out there, it's got to be better than this.

take a moment to have that honest self-talk. I think honest self-talk is the biggest part of all of this when engaging, even once you start your business. Do I have the right target demographic? Have I branded in the correct way? What tweaks do I need to make each year? What isn't working? Like, what am I doing wrong? And it goes back to your point about humility. I love your humility. After so many years in the industry, you're still the same mark that I met day one. And I think that's so.

valuable because clients in any industry feel that if you come in there telling them, I know best and I'm here to enlighten you, it's probably not going to go very well for you. Right.

Mark (34:03.025)

Right.

No, no, it doesn't go well for you even when you have the street cred. Yeah, and the other thing that's very important to keep in mind is that your chances of success are much better if you have a real differentiation point. So when I do media training, one of the things I try to coax out of my clients is, and I'll ask them during the mock interview drills that we do, what makes your widget company

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:10.046)

Agreed.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:22.797)

key point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:30.315)

Yeah.

Mark (34:33.556)

different from all the others in the region. And nine times out of 10, they'll say, we put the customer first. We are a people-oriented company. The most silly, generic references that every single other widget company in the country is going to say, too. But if they can say, we are the only widget company embracing the latest AI technology to provide the best results for clients.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:40.686)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:52.076)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:00.907)

Mmm.

Mark (35:02.284)

or we are the, we happen to be the oldest, you know, or we happen to be the one that has won the most awards. What I'm getting at is have a real differentiation point that you can put out there right away against your competition that is not generic. Ask yourself, could every other person in town who's doing what I do say this too? And if they could, I probably need to find something else to say.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:06.166)

Oh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:22.318)

Hmm, I love that. I absolutely love that. And it dovetails really nicely with one thing we talk about as a firm too. Don't only know what you do and to your point, what makes you the specialized widget company, but know what markets you're not going after. What do you not do? That's so much of it. We turn down clients that are like, I know it's a stretch, but do you think?

Mark (35:40.784)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:46.542)

It's just not what we do. We'd be happy to refer you. We don't have standard operating procedures for that. We are very process driven in our firm. We don't have a process for that. There's not enough ROI for us to create a process for that. We realize you want a one-off. It's different if it's a high value client, but be okay knowing what you don't do and embrace that as much as what you do do, right? I mean, did you?

Mark (36:08.505)

I so agree.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:10.006)

Did you ever turn clients away for that reason? You're like, you're just not my jam. You don't have to disclose them, but just to say it just doesn't fit.

Mark (36:18.416)

In the beginning, I cast a very wide net. So for example, I offered video production, and I did a couple of video production jobs and realized immediately, this is not what I wanna do. This feels like being back at CNN again, sitting in an edit bay all day and getting micromanaged, not by my bosses, but this time by the client. And at the end of the day, the amount of work we were putting in, just the ROI, as you say, wasn't there.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:25.127)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:33.158)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (36:48.392)

So within the first two years, the video production element came off the website. I'm a big believer when you're starting out in stretching to the point where you think, I think I could do that. And I think I could fake it until I make it. But if it's so far afield that it's going to spread you very thin and water down your true core competencies, it's a bad idea. We all know what it's like to go to somebody's website and see 30 different things that they claim to be able to do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:53.718)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:09.981)

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Mark (37:18.308)

Unless that's a handyman, in which case I think that's a plus, I will look at those. Yeah, but otherwise I'll look at those webpages and go, you know, where's the specialty? Where's the specialty?

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:23.308)

Yeah, when the garbage disposal doesn't work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:30.341)

Mm.

I really love that because one thing I love to say is if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none, right? It really is true. If you're trying to please everyone, you're pleasing no one. This comes back again to understanding your target market. What do you do? What do you not do? Figuring that out and being brave enough to do that. That is hard to do initially in your business. And I certainly can relate to that of just taking who comes to your door and rings the bell. There is a time and a place for that. But after a certain point too, you get the luxury of saying, I don't have to work this

to make this round peg fit in this square hole because this client just isn't right.

And that's a beautiful place to be able to be. You alluded to it too, the idea of core competencies, but understanding what your values as an organization are. What is your mission statement? And don't let that sit there and gather dust. Have it be an operable thing that is the tester for which clients you're taking, what projects you're taking, why you're taking the projects you are even. If you don't agree with the organization, what are you doing their work for them? It's gonna be a lose-lose for you and them because your heart isn't in it. And they're gonna sense that. Clients are smart.

Mark (38:36.712)

Yeah, absolutely. And the longer you're in the business, whatever business you're in, the better you're able to detect which are the right clients or the right fit for you, right? I can tell just by an email. I mean, just by an email address. In my particular business, I'm not making a universal value judgment. I'm saying in my business, if I get an email on a Sunday morning from a Gmail address or a Hotmail address,

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:41.82)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:46.998)

Totally.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:51.414)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:55.49)

Sure.

Mark (39:03.052)

It's not going to be a client that's going to afford me. It's not going to be a client that I'm right for. And so we're wasting each other's time. You'll be able to pick up on cues and it's a good idea to get out of those conversations as quickly as possible. Once you realize it's just not a good fit.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:03.09)

Not your people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:20.402)

That is such a wise word because there's part of us that wants to hang on and try to make work and smooth out the wrinkles and figure out a way. And you nailed it. Get out of those conversations as quickly as you got in. Move on. It's a time suck. And when you're spending time, you're spending money on it.

Mark (39:38.012)

And it's always nice to maybe have referrals for these people, right, who may not be ready for your level of service, but really need help. And maybe you can provide them with free resources or online resources or a scrappy colleague of yours who's just starting out and maybe a better fit. Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:41.739)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:46.41)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:54.91)

Yep. Well, it goes right back to what you were saying about networking in your industry, out of your industry. Go find those people because it goes both ways. It absolutely goes both ways. Okay, you ready for the lightning round? If you could tell your 20 year old self something, what would it be?

Mark (39:58.725)

Mm-hmm.

Mark (40:06.848)

Sure.

Mark (40:13.704)

Be patient, be patient. The work you're putting in now may not result in the life you expected, but a much better one. And patience has, to this day, it's very elusive to me, but I think that would be it. Be patient. Hard to do when you're 20.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:25.159)

Mmm, I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:34.898)

Hard to do when you're 20 and you have a journalist's attention span and I feel every part of that. Oh my gosh One book that has changed your life and why either personally or professionally

Mark (40:38.895)

Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Mark (40:47.456)

I don't know, I can't think right now of a book that has changed my life, but I'll tell you this. The last book I read was Matthew Perry's book. And I finished it weeks, yeah, I finished it weeks before he died. And it was just very poignant when I found out that he died because the book was so full of hope. It was so, it's an excellent book. I really encourage people to read it. Whether or not they're fans, I wasn't a Big Friends fan, but I loved reading the book.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:53.132)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:57.398)

That good.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:01.676)

Oh...

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:09.047)

Really?

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:14.502)

Yeah.

Mark (41:15.688)

This was a guy who was at his absolute nadir, he was absolute low point, and pulled his act together numerous times and slipped back as one does, looked like he had really achieved the recovery that he was hoping to, and was full of hope and optimism, and his time ran out. And I think that was a poignant lesson for me, don't take anything for granted. And yeah, that's it, don't take it for granted.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:21.204)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:27.007)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:34.434)

Hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:41.718)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:45.406)

Yeah, we'll put a hyperlink in the show notes for anyone who wants to snag a copy of that. Yeah, what was so neat that a little morsel that came out in his passing was that he was in the process of setting up a facility for other people struggling with addiction.

Mark (42:00.365)

By all accounts, he was doing better than he ever had. He was happier and healthier than... Now, as we're recording this, who knows what his cause of death was and maybe he did have a relapse. Who knows? But he, by all appearances, seemed to be doing very well. And regardless of what happened to him, the idea that you work really, really hard to fix what's challenging you, you hope that the fix sticks?

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:04.604)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:13.686)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:16.969)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:25.432)

you

Mark (42:28.2)

You assume it does and it doesn't always, so don't take it for granted.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:28.225)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:32.366)

I love that. Yeah, it's a true story of overcoming who can't root for that. And then finally your greatest time hack, or we've even had some people push back and say, we don't think time can be hacked. So you're welcome to do that too. But do you have a time hack that you have found as an entrepreneur and as a principal that you go, wow, that was a game changer for me and running my own business.

Mark (42:43.594)

Yeah.

Mark (42:53.188)

You know, nothing, nothing that is going to be unbelievably insightful. You mentioned earlier that you are productive at nine o'clock at night. I'm the opposite. I am an early bird. I get up very early. I start work as early as I can. I prefer doing my media trainings early in the day. I find clients, by the way, are more better prepared for, yeah, when they're when they're just fresh. So I like getting it done earlier in the day and then being able to look back and say,

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:14.194)

On point. Yeah. Yep.

Mark (43:22.116)

I'm done. And whether that's seven o'clock at night or two o'clock in the afternoon, I've gotten it down and I'm done. The other thing is that, you know, we used to, people used to go to bed, some people, business people, thought leaders, artists, authors, would go to bed with a notepad, right? So that the minute that something came to them, they could just reach over and take a note. Well, we all have these now, right? And there's a notepad in this and I use it all the time. And I'm constantly stopping and going.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:30.167)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:38.081)

Yeah.

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:45.462)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:50.317)

Yep.

Mark (43:51.84)

If there's an idea but I'm out for a walk, I need to remember this and I will write it down. That helps me because I seem to be forgetting things more than I used to.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:53.431)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (43:57.204)

Hmm...

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:02.474)

I don't know what you're talking about again, Mark. I have no idea what you're talking about. Good gosh. No, that triggered a thought in the Wall Street Journal last week, there was, or a while back, there was a reporter who tried three different CEO lifestyles and their morning prep and how they get out the door and how he fared. And you know, I really admire the chap, one, for giving it a whirl, and two, for his complete candor in seeing what an epic failure each of these lifestyles was. But to your point, they're all early birds.

Mark (44:26.5)

Yeah.

Mark (44:31.546)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:32.808)

with a full breakfast and we've gotten all our emails done. We've read five magazines or newspapers and we're walking into the office at 7.45 a.m. And I'm like, how, how?

Mark (44:34.419)

Yeah.

Mark (44:45.615)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (44:45.898)

to do the inverse article of the nocturnal principle. Like, how does that person work and what does their morning routine look like or their nighttime routine? But yeah, figuring out your sweet spot. That is one of the best parts of being able to work for yourself is working during the hours that work for you instead of you being forced into an office at eight o'clock and spending an hour putting on lipstick heels or whatever else is needed to show up and look like you're human. You and me both.

Mark (44:49.929)

Yeah.

Mark (45:09.128)

Yeah, those days are over for me. Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that, because I should be clear and say that I'm not struggling to get up early and get this done against my instincts. Those are my instincts. That's just the way I operate, and it seems to work for me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:24.542)

Yeah. Which I absolutely love because I think if more people were allowed to do that, and I realize in large corporations where you have to manage a kajillion people that isn't doable, but when we allow people to find their sweet spots, just biology, you're an early morning person, I'm a late evening person, like just figuring that out, I find that people produce so much better work and they're happier and we keep them longer and clients are happier. It's just that like we actually treat them like they're human.

Mark (45:39.526)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (45:54.026)

What a novel thought. They're actually human and that's where they're at. And let's embrace that instead of trying to fit them into an eight to five 1920s industrial evolution mindset, which just doesn't work. Mark, great conversation. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights. It means the world. And I hope our audience found it as valuable as I did.

Mark (46:02.944)

100%.

Mark (46:12.896)

honored to be with you. Thank you, Katie.