What if I told you that you could improve your employees’ productivity by over 200%? Yes, you could actually have energized, happy, thoughtful, and super productive employees by getting clear on just one thing! It’s something that greatly differentiates you from your competition. Your company culture.

Josh Dykstra is with me today to talk about all things company culture. We’re going deep with this topic! What it is and how it impacts your business and where to even begin. And we’re not just talking about typical office culture—Josh helped me settle a debate about building teams remotely. Whether you’re running a small firm or a large one, this episode is packed with helpful tips!

In this episode, we cover:

• What is company culture in 2023

• Why you should think of company culture as an operating system

• Why does company culture matter

• How company culture impacts productivity

• How to identify your company culture

• Is it possible to have a company culture with a remote team

• How to improve company culture remotely

• The differences in company culture between large and small businesses

• How to actually energize employees and contractors (vs draining them like a battery)

• The role Covid played in highlighting company culture

• The power and importance of all-hands meetings

• The difference between leadership and management

• Why management is an outdated technology

• Why you should invite employees and contractors to show up as a whole person

Say hi to Josh and I on Instagram, and share your biggest aha moment around the topic of company culture!

Links and Mentioned Resources

Igniting the Invisible Tribe

Firms of Endearment

Strengths Based Leadership

Connect with Josh Dykstra

Website

Instagram

LinkedIn

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

Business Coaching for Interior Designers

Facebook

Instagram

We'd love to hear from YOU!

Click here to fill out our listener survey!

Subscribe to Colorful Conversations with Katie Podcast

YouTube

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:00.639)

Hey Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh Allan Dykstra (00:03.061)

Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:05.354)

We're so glad to have you and to talk about this really wonky topic called company culture. And I feel like it's always been a thing after covid. It seems like it's become like nailing jello to a wall type of thing. Everyone has an opinion. Can you create it remotely? Can you not create it remotely? There's so many thoughts and not just thoughts but really strong feelings around it. Let's just start with what is culture? What does company culture mean when we say that in 2023?

Josh Allan Dykstra (00:34.173)

Yeah, absolutely. But I think one of the great things the pandemic did was actually bring this, this topic to light in a way that, that it wasn't really talked about pre pandemic, because this has always been a chat. Right. I've, I've been talking about this for 15 years and people, well before me for 20, 30, 50 years, right? So it's like, this is not a new topic, but it feels like it's new on the stage of awareness for a lot of people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:41.069)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:44.397)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:57.572)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (00:59.641)

And so in order to understand culture though, I really recommend not thinking about culture because culture is almost, almost in, yeah. But it's so complex, right? You look up culture in the dictionary and it's just like this string of words that's just, it gets bizarrely complex so fast because this amalgamation of all these different things, right, that kind of come into this like melting pot and that makes your culture and it gets really confusing really quickly.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:06.259)

Oh, that's counterintuitive. Yeah, but.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:18.616)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:22.426)

Mm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (01:28.305)

And so what we recommend is using a different metaphor to understand culture, which is an operating system. So think about like, you might not think about the operating system on your phone or your computer very often, unless you're a big nerd like me. But that operating system, right, whether it's on your phone or your computer, whatever, like that operating system is controlling everything on the device, right? What can be installed, what can run, what can work, what doesn't work, you know, how things work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:34.752)

Interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:43.496)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:51.862)

Mmm...

Josh Allan Dykstra (01:58.449)

everything is controlled by the operating system and that's actually what culture is. It's the operating system of your business. And so when you start to understand culture as an operating system, A, it becomes more tangible. Right, it's like, oh, I can kind of like understand it a little better. It becomes, you know, B, it becomes a lot less complex. Right, because this operating system is, yeah, exactly, it feels less like that, right? An operating system's still complex. There's a lot of things happening, but.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:58.454)

Hmm, interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:11.581)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:18.662)

It doesn't feel like jello to the wall. Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (02:27.549)

we can build these things, right? We can upgrade these things. And so it's just a better way to think about culture, I found.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:29.422)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:35.958)

I absolutely love that definition of it, and it does make it more tangible. Why does company culture matter?

in an organization. Because we look at some big box retailers, I think we can all think of a number of them that really don't have a company culture. And it's very void of humanity. And then you can also probably think of Starbucks. And you go in and there's going to be a green apron. And you're going to get a hello, welcome to Starbucks. And it doesn't matter how many 15 items you have on your drink order, it's met with a smile. Why does company culture matter?

Josh Allan Dykstra (03:10.077)

Yeah. And just, and I would offer a small kind of adjustment there, which is that all companies have a culture. Now, some cultures might not be good. Right. To your point, I think is what you meant is like a good culture, right? But they all do. All companies have an operating system, but some, some of their, some companies operating systems are designed to treat people like garbage. And so what you're thinking talking about our cultures that are good, right? They're, they're designed to actually treat people well.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:14.882)

Please do. Meh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:20.418)

That's very fair.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:32.016)

So true.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:36.514)

Hmm

Josh Allan Dykstra (03:39.409)

And so that's a different thing, and it's a much more rare thing, right, to find a cultural system, right, cultural operating system that's actually designed to optimize for humanity. That's why I have a job, right, because a lot of companies don't do that very well. But it matters a tremendous amount, right? It takes a, it does. It doesn't.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:43.143)

I agree.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:57.986)

Well, and it takes intentionality, right? Like, it's not just going to arbitrarily happen. That's how you end up with a culture devoid of that human element.

Josh Allan Dykstra (04:07.469)

Exactly. That's what happens, right? It's entropy in action. It disintegrates to the point of kind of, you know, most companies we see that aren't particularly human-centric. That's kind of what happens with that. It's like an untended garden, right? Like what happens if you don't tend the garden, right? It becomes full of weeds and it becomes kind of a mess. So it does take a lot of intentionality, but goodness, it matters, right? Which you know, right? If you've been to a company...

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:23.827)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:28.856)

Hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (04:37.461)

that treats its people well, you know those people treat their customers better. They bring in better ideas, they collaborate better, there's less tension, and they're better at pretty much every business metric across the board. If you measure it over the long term, is better in a company that has better culture. So it's better for your people, it's better for business. The only thing that kind of gets hard for people is, yeah, is when we have, if we adopt a short term,

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:38.07)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:56.355)

Mm-mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:01.346)

So I agree.

Josh Allan Dykstra (05:06.705)

view of the world. This doesn't compute as well, but if you have any kind of longer term view of what's happening in business, creating a better culture is a no-brainer.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:20.842)

Oh, it's critical because like you said, your internal stakeholders, i.e. your employees, your contractors are going to feel it and that directly affects the outputs to those external stakeholders, which are the ones writing your paycheck. And so there's a massive continuum there.

Josh Allan Dykstra (05:34.058)

It does.

Josh Allan Dykstra (05:38.525)

Yeah, yeah, I'll just give you, I mean, there's tons of stats on this, right? If people wanna really dig into this and they're like, I don't believe you, Josh, right, about like, that this is true, I would just say, go read a book called Firms of Endearment. And I'll give you one stat, which is pretty crazy, which is about directly productivity, right? So if we wanna just talk about it, you know, hardcore business kind of measurement, right, productivity. If we get to the level where your employees can say that they're inspired.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:42.402)

Go for it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:51.241)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:57.432)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:02.846)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (06:08.137)

by their work, by their culture, right? They are 225% more productive than if you were just satisfied. Right, and this is like, so you could write, and these are satisfied people, right? So they're satisfied with their jobs, but if you, well, a lot of people do, right, yeah. It's not even close to what you could be doing, right? You're leaving so much money on the table by not inspiring your people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:08.563)

Oh, wow.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:16.474)

Oh, that's breathtaking. Really?

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:23.83)

Which you think is good enough. They're not leaving. They're happy. They're good. But it's not good enough.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:33.354)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:38.474)

So the question becomes the how. If I'm sitting here and I have, let's say, one or two employees or I have one or two contractors I work intimately with and I'm like, gosh, Josh, I'm not even sure. You're right, I do have some sort of company culture, but I really don't know what it is. Where do you start with that? Like, I know this is important, but what do I do with this?

Josh Allan Dykstra (06:55.873)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Allan Dykstra (07:01.681)

Yeah, especially if you're in a small firm, right? You've got a lot of opportunity to kind of craft this. And again, it does start with what you said earlier. It starts with just being intentional. Like realizing that it exists, whether you realize it or not, it's there. And so just by putting some of your attention on it and saying, hey, this is happening, right? There's an operating system here in my business running in the background. And if I don't intentionally craft it,

I will be running a default operating system that's from a whole bunch of other patterns and other crap that I've gotten from other places that I've worked, other managers that I've worked for. That becomes the default software that's running in your business if you don't intentionally make it different. So I would say the first step is just to get intentional. And the moment you start to put your intentionality towards it, it will get better because you're paying attention to it, just like any other part of your business. Your finances aren't going to get...

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:38.199)

So well said. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:56.663)

Hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (08:00.017)

Nothing's going to happen there unless you pay attention to them. You're nothing's going to happen with your marketing unless you pay attention to it. Right? You put your attention on the culture, even a little bit, it will start to improve it. Um, and the next thing I would think of, think about, or encourage people to think about is really, uh, start to pay attention to what energizes people more and what drains people, right? So if you can, if you can start to be intentional about crafting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:22.168)

Oh, yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (08:28.557)

a culture or an operating system that actually brings people energy throughout their workday. Almost everything else will start to work better for you. Like if you just use that one principle and put that at the center of what you're doing, everything gets better. So I would start there and we can go into more detail on any of this if you want to.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:34.208)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:49.578)

No, I think this is great because a lot of times we just think of stress so negatively. But any psychologist will tell you there's positive stressors and there's negative stressors. And if you don't get up in the morning and go, yeah, I've got a bunch of dragons to slay today. And in the words of Pat Benatar, hit me with your best shot. Like I am ready to do this. If that isn't where you're at, it's time to take a step back and say, wait, where is that spot for me? If it's

Oh gosh, I got six hours of meetings, and then I got to return all those emails. And if that's where you're at, and that's the emotional tone of your subconscious throughout the day, that is an immense waste of the abilities you've been given to change the world in a significant way. I think everybody has them. It's just teasing them out and being brave enough to pursue them, because you're not going to give to your organization, you're not going to give to your clients, and most importantly, you're not giving to yourself.

Josh Allan Dykstra (09:43.685)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we talk about this a lot in the frame of flow states.

Right, so if you've been, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with this or not, but quick thing, if you're not familiar with flow, you are. Right, because what being in flow is, it's being in the zone. Right, so it's like you're working on something and you're so engrossed in it, you forget to eat lunch and you look up and it's two hours later and you're still really energized and you're really focused. That's a flow state. Right, so most of us have experienced this even if we don't have a name for it. Right, we often call it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:50.295)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:55.69)

Oh no, give us the overview. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:14.251)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (10:17.653)

you know, being in the zone or something like this. We see it a lot more in kind of like music or sports, right? But what we're trying to do is say, how do you get in that state at work? And I think that's kind of what you're hinting at, right? It's like, how do you get into that place more frequently? And so what there is with a flow state is there's a...

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:20.363)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:28.433)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:34.028)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (10:38.565)

kind of a connection between skill and challenge. So if you can imagine even like an axis here, you've got skill and challenge. What you've got to do is actually like push yourself a little bit further on the challenge part than the amount of skill you have.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:43.766)

Hmm.

Okay.

Josh Allan Dykstra (10:53.353)

Right, so kind of to your point, right, with, you know, the challenges that we want to face, right, we want it to be meaningful, but that's where you find yourself able to get into a flow state when you're challenging yourself a little bit beyond your skill level in a zone of energy. Right, something you like to do, that's something that brings you energy. And if you do more of those kinds of things and keep pushing yourself on that edge, you'll be able to find yourself in a flow state more at work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:56.884)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:08.7)

Interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:18.77)

So what happens if...

I'm sitting on the other end of the spectrum, and I don't have one or two contractors, but maybe I have 20 employees in my design firm. And I'm feeling like maybe we have just lost our way and gotten clunky as we have grown, and we've lost some of our agility, which we know is a core business function. How do we start to redefine a culture? Because I think when you're part of a larger organization, or you're the principal of a large organization, it often feels like turning the Titanic

criminal changes can be really challenging. What would you say to that person who's listening today?

Josh Allan Dykstra (11:57.349)

Yeah, most of these things all kind of start in the same spot. So it doesn't actually vary that much, you know, the size of your, or based on the size of your organization. What it really, really depends on is a leader who's got the guts to do it. Right. And because this isn't an overnight thing, even in a, even in a small boat, it can feel like turning a Titanic. Right. It's just like, it's these.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:01.442)

Okay.

That's encouraging.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:16.176)

Mmm, mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:23.276)

It can.

Josh Allan Dykstra (12:24.925)

Right, these things are hard, these things are hard. They're hard because most of us aren't used to working this way, right? Most of us are not used to working in a culture that optimizes for our energy. Most of us are used to working in a culture that's the opposite, right? It's the most organizational structures are designed to use you as the battery, right? We suck your energy out. Exactly.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:33.283)

Not at all.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:43.646)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:50.614)

Yeah, they suck you dry. Yeah, exactly.

Josh Allan Dykstra (12:54.793)

Yep. So what I'm talking about is really just the opposite of that. Right? It's that there are organizational structures that actually give humans energy. And when they do, everything works better. Right? Because your people aren't so drained. Right? Like, cause you're not drained. Right? You're...

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:11.522)

So I agree.

Josh Allan Dykstra (13:13.161)

It just makes sense, right? It's logical, but it's hard because it's nothing most of us have seen or experienced, right? But there are plenty of organizations out there, I promise you, me and partners of mine over the years have been cataloging these. There's tons of them that are really trying to do work differently, but it's not the default path. And that's the hard part, whether you're a tiny company or an enormous company, this is not the default path. And so again, it goes back to that kind of intentionality.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:28.632)

Hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (13:43.275)

We've got some resources that we'd be happy to share, you know, if people wanna go down this path. Yep, happy to share with your listeners. Something that we really highly recommend is something like a culture book or a culture deck, right? So one of the things you really need to do is start articulating the prime kind of tenets or principles of what you want your culture to be.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:46.966)

be great. We'll put them in the show notes for sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:58.)

Ah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (14:09.629)

Because if you don't get it out on paper, if you don't turn it into a constitution of sorts, that people can read and agree to or not agree to and go work somewhere else, you'll have no... Exactly. But without that, you'll have no collective agreements that people can rally around. So getting it out of the founders heads and onto paper is one of the most important things you can do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:14.582)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:19.754)

Yeah, and say it's not a good fit. It's a, I'm out, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:28.385)

Mmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (14:35.533)

making these things into behavioral statements is really important. We call these things vital behaviors. Like what are the things that are just non-negotiable? If you want to work here, right? There's lots of places you can work, but if you want to work here, this is how we do it. Right? So I can share some of those things that would use as resources, but that would be the place I would start to. Whether you're in a big company or a tiny one.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:57.45)

We would love that.

Well, and I think that's what's interesting too, is the word that comes to mind as you're talking is unapologetic. It's just this is who we are unapologetically. And you can either get on the train, so to speak, and drink the Kool-Aid. I'm thinking Dutch Brothers Coffee, another one that has a super strong company culture. Or you can say, no, I'd rather have a milk toast culture, go in, log my eight to five, and say goodbye at the end of the day. I don't know very many people who want to do that. But at least then, there's clear consensus.

Josh Allan Dykstra (15:23.775)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (15:29.29)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:29.632)

on our team is care. We can't teach people care, but care is a huge part of our culture. Care for our teammates, care for our clients, care is a huge, huge thing and it comes up all the time. What's interesting is it ends up affecting ethics, right? It ends up affecting just the way we interact with other human beings and our brand and it all, once you start going down this road I feel like you start to see it all tie together in a meaningful way that

Josh Allan Dykstra (15:35.681)

Hmm. Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (15:58.313)

No. Yeah. And it does, you're right. It affects, it kind of impacts everything. Right. It's, it's going to, so what you've got there is you're maybe your first vital behavior, you know, like that is, this is something that's really important to us as an organization and our culture. Right. So, but, but yeah, without that kind of like, you know, guiding, guiding frame of, you know, like a constitution, right. That people can get on board with or not.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:08.52)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:14.423)

percent.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:21.949)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (16:27.733)

It's really, it's like just running a computer without having any clue how the operating system works or what you're even running. Am I on a PC? Am I on a Mac? Am I on a phone? Am I on an Android? I don't have any of that. It's just confusion. If you don't understand your operating system, which is how a lot of companies feel, honestly. They feel that kind of like...

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:27.798)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:43.476)

I don't know, but it's out there. Yeah, yeah, I feel every part of that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:51.948)

Mmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (16:54.153)

you know, unmoored, uncentered, ungrounded, kind of, right, they don't know who they are, and this is why.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:57.026)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:01.282)

Well, and it's interesting you should bring that up because I think COVID, if anything, was gonna rock the boat, not to go back to our Titanic analogy, but I love that you speak in analogies too. I love analogies. But COVID sure rocked the boat for so many organizations, culturally. In fact, my husband and I have gotten into numerous, long, intense conversations about this. And he is very much in the camp of bring everybody back. We can't have a company culture unless people are there interacting with each other. And I'm like, we built a whole company culture without sitting in the same room.

Josh Allan Dykstra (17:08.489)

Hmm?

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:32.757)

What are your thoughts on that? Like how is it doable? Not that I'm gonna ask you to play marriage counselor, but is it doable to create a culture remotely? And are we getting better at doing that? Or are we once again focusing on the things that don't really matter so much as the operating system? To use your words.

Josh Allan Dykstra (17:35.637)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (17:53.433)

Yeah, yeah, this is such a, such a great question. And I love it. No, and advance apologies to your husband. I got, I got, I started a little bit of like a LinkedIn war actually with a comment I made about this particular topic a while ago. And what I basically said was, yeah, I said, let me see if I can get this right. I said, you know, if you can't do culture remotely,

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:01.545)

Thank you so much.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:11.723)

Oh, interesting.

Josh Allan Dykstra (18:21.769)

You never had a culture, you just had an office.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:25.634)

I want to give a slow clap for that because that's exactly how I feel. You built yourself a beautiful building to house humans and feed them and let them use the restroom. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Okay, but obviously it started a culture war. There's very strong feelings. What were some of the comments you got to that?

Josh Allan Dykstra (18:32.376)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (18:42.321)

There is. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people kind of misunderstanding what I was saying and saying, well, some, some work needs to happen in person and someone I said, no, that of course it does. Right. I'm, I'm talking specifically about office culture right here. And as I mentioned in the comment, so yeah, the absolutely there's caveats here, right? There are certain jobs that are in-person jobs, but for a lot of jobs. Yeah, sure. Well, a lot of, a lot of jobs are not that, especially office jobs.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:52.119)

Sure.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:56.016)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:03.706)

building a bridge. Sure.

Josh Allan Dykstra (19:10.557)

And yeah, what I tend to believe is that, yeah, this is completely doable, virtually, remotely. You know, it's like this is what we've done since the very beginning of our company, simply because me and my business partner, we live in different states, and neither of us are gonna move to the other state. So we had to figure this out. And yeah, it is very doable. It's very possible to have a fabulous.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:30.562)

Sure.

Josh Allan Dykstra (19:35.705)

Fabulous company culture and not have an office if you have the kind of work that lends itself to being able to be done that way um, and Yeah, wait, I would I would some of the people on my team Uh that I feel very close to Um, and I would I call them my work friends to my kids. These are my work friends. I've never met them right, I've Right. I've never i've never sat in a room with them

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:36.567)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:54.399)

Yep.

Yep. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:05.93)

Yep. But you trust them intrinsically. Yeah. That's funny. Well, and that's exactly where we are. It's interesting how similar our companies are in that regard, because it has changed. It's been a long time since I've been able to talk to you.

Josh Allan Dykstra (20:06.263)

But I trust them implicitly, they're fabulous people. Yeah, yep, exactly. So it's very possible to do.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:20.874)

absolutely changes everything, I think, in COVID and that we all got comfortable on Zoom. We all got used to Google Earth and all these other modalities. And at first, it was quite awkward, right? Let's be honest. It's like taking off the training wheels the first time as you're out there bike riding. But then it has become so fluid. And I feel like it's a technological language that's become so fluent. We've all had to become fluent in it in so many regards. And so to work in that space.

I really care about these people on my team. And to your point, yeah, we've never sat across the table necessarily and even had a dinner together, which we need to do. But it hasn't inhibited the work at all, which, in fact, if anything, I think it's been helpful. Because coming back to your point about energy,

Josh Allan Dykstra (20:55.785)

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:07.426)

People seem to be a lot more energized when I can say, I'm gonna throw a chicken in a crockpot, throw in a load of laundry, and I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna go into deep work mode. I'm gonna get in that flow zone and I'm gonna start cranking away on this without thinking, oh gosh, is everything falling apart back at home? Or is, you know, or what about all my coworkers and all of the office politics, right? A lot of that hubbub and kind of white noise, it gets removed.

Josh Allan Dykstra (21:29.636)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:33.834)

when you have the option of putting together a remote team.

Josh Allan Dykstra (21:34.503)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, I think what people, uh, maybe like your husband are, are missing, like just literally, literally missing there. They're missing kind of those connections that you get in an office, right? It's like, and so what, and this is the difficult part of working virtually remotely or even hybrid. You have to find a way to kind of reinstate those connections because your proverbial water cooler is gone.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:42.742)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:48.799)

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:59.867)

Mmm... Yeah, for real.

Josh Allan Dykstra (22:01.469)

Right? Like that doesn't exist. Right? There's, there are no, there are no random collisions in the hallway. There are no passing conversations as someone walks by someone else's desk. Right? That stuff doesn't exist in the world of virtual or remote. And so you've got to find a way to recreate that, that kind of like being human together space, right? And so companies who do this well and do good culture well, virtually or remotely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:07.431)

No.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:12.95)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:19.487)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (22:28.233)

That's what they've done, right? They figured out a way to kind of replicate those water cooler moments. Uh, and that's, I think that's a huge part of what people who say, Oh, no, I need to be in the office. And they're, they feel like they would miss that. And they would if, unless they're, they're virtual company does this in a different way.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:33.814)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:39.13)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:48.158)

So my question is the how. How do we do it in a different way? How do we replicate? I know for our team, we love Slack. We use Slack all the time, and it's great. You can just do a backslash, zoom, and voila, up pops your person, right? Super duper helpful. How do you, what are the other ways we create virtual water coolers and we build this culture despite distance?

Josh Allan Dykstra (23:12.977)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're, we're drifting a little bit, you know, into the, to the product that we offer, which is called love work. Um, so I can talk about that if you want to. Um, but what we're, what we're really about, right? What we're really about is, is actually creating more human moments in the work itself.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:20.822)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:32.418)

Hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (23:33.769)

Right. So I think some of the more traditional answers you might get if you ask people this question, it's like do a virtual happy hour. Right. Like that kind of stuff and all that's fine. Right. Like, like, exactly, exactly. That's but it doesn't work for everybody. So you so from our perspective, you've got to find a way to get the humanity into the workflow.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:34.978)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:43.364)

I don't want to come to a virtual happy hour. I'm not going to lie, Josh. That's not my happy place. Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (23:57.633)

All right, so this is what love work does, right? It helps give people a structure to be able to meet with their team on a weekly basis and get a little bit of team building, you know, in 15 minutes a week. And so it's just, it's just so creating some simple patterns to help your team be human with each other.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:58.126)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:11.787)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:16.001)

Yep.

Josh Allan Dykstra (24:18.057)

We have an all hands every, every Monday. We start with gratitude, right? So every, when we do a round, right? Everybody gets to say, Hey, I'm great. What are you? So we ask everybody, what are you grateful for today? And then how are you checking in? Like what are you checking in upset? Are you checking in happy? Are you checking it? Whatever. Right. There's no judge. We just want to know how you're showing up today. Right. So it's just a, it's just the most, we take a half hour.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:18.327)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:23.363)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:31.927)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:35.032)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:39.55)

So powerful.

Josh Allan Dykstra (24:41.281)

And that's what we do. We do that check-in, and then we watch our, what we call a huddle video, which is part of the LoveWork experience. And we do that together. It takes a half hour for us once a week. And it really like creates those same kind of bonds that you'd feel in like a team building offsite. But we do it just a little bite size way every week.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:01.95)

I love that you're bringing up the, how are you checking in today? Because that's one thing I've really noticed, especially.

after COVID and because we've all been behind machines for so long, is sometimes it's easier to have a lot bigger feelings and not have a filter on those feelings. In fact, it was interesting. I was on the phone with a personal issue today and I said to the gentleman who answered, I said, I am very irate, but I am sure you are a lovely individual and I don't want you to think I'm mad at you in any way, but I need you to help me solve this problem because I thought if this poor gentleman is picking up the phone, he's going to be like,

lady get a grip, right? And like, why are you hating on me? I'm showing up to help you. And I just think sometimes that whole idea of just saying, hang on, let me take my emotional temperature, tell you what it is and that it's not your fault. Man, does that change the dialogue and the narrative instead of, wow, Sally may came to the Monday meeting and I don't know what I ever did to her, but she is real mad at me. And that just, it just prevents so much clutter in the emotional realm of an office. That's so powerful, Josh.

Josh Allan Dykstra (25:38.89)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (25:43.443)

Right.

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:03.732)

Yeah. Yep. It does. Yeah, it's really, we call that the... Oh, go ahead.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:07.09)

Yeah, we're going to put. Oh, go ahead.

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:13.11)

We call that the power of the pause. Right? So taking a pause before you, right? So you don't react, you respond. Right? And that's what the power of a pause does. And it's really hard to do, but it's really one of the most powerful tools we've got.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:20.354)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:25.197)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:28.77)

Oh, absolutely. I think of that and the implied versus the inferred. Realize that what the speaker implies may not be what you inferred, and that could be your emotional state, it could be their emotional state, you just never know on any given day. I wanna talk about this idea of management being completely outdated technology. This is a premise you put forth. I, that caught my eye. Tell me more and tell me why.

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:33.347)

Hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:37.424)

Yeah

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:49.223)

Sure.

Josh Allan Dykstra (26:56.389)

Sure. So we want to distinguish pretty immediately between management and leadership. So just to make that as a distinction, management really is a technology. So if we understand the word technology, it's applying science to behaviors. And so this is really what managers are doing. So it's a technology that was invented to.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:03.138)

Mmm, for sure.

Josh Allan Dykstra (27:23.349)

kind of prevent the idea was that most people are dumb and can't make decisions. And so we need to find the smart people to make the decisions for all the dumb people. And therefore we invented managers to do that. Literally this is basically how it was, how this idea totally, but that's how this idea came about in the early 19th century, or early 20th century. And so.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:41.846)

which is heartbreaking.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:50.237)

Mm-hmm. Sure, industrial revolution, yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (27:53.045)

Um, yeah, and that, right? I don't think we find a lot of managers today who would say, yeah, all my people are dumb, right? They need me to make all the decisions for, right? Like they're not going to, like, that's not what they're going to say. But the reality is that this hierarchy thing, when we're just giving people power over other people simply because there needs to be people that have power over other people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:13.742)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:22.27)

And once again, why? Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (28:22.429)

Right? This exactly that that's what we call a fiat hierarchy. Right? It's like it's powered just for the sake that some people need it. Or we think they, right. What it does is it creates this really dangerous dynamic where the people underneath that manager feel completely disempowered to make any decisions ever. And they also fit. It is. And so.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:45.038)

It's like sucking all the oxygen out of a room and then telling someone to run a marathon.

Josh Allan Dykstra (28:52.541)

Compare that though with leadership, which I would say is not a hierarchy of, um, you know, just kind of granted power, right? It's not because you just, right. If you're a leader, that, that means that you have people following you and they're following you because they want to. Exactly. And that's a different kind of hierarchy. It's a hierarchy of expertise. And it's like, Hey, or vision.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:04.747)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:08.214)

voluntarily.

Right. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:17.76)

Mmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (29:19.697)

or passion, right, I'm following you because I believe in what the vision for the future that you have is so compelling, I wanna go with you there. Right, and that is a completely different kind of hierarchy. Right, it's a voluntary one. It's saying I wanna go where you're going because man, you've captured my heart or my mind or whatever. Right, and that stuff is really powerful, but this kind of like.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:27.958)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:31.964)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:40.608)

extremely.

Josh Allan Dykstra (29:42.085)

Somebody has power over me simply because they're my manager, not because they have any expertise or they've earned my trust in any fashion, but just because they're my manager. Like that shit is really dangerous. Right. And that's why I say it's out, it's outdated technology, right? Like it's, we get so much more out of people, uh, and people are able to give so much more of themselves. Right. Both of those things happen when we don't do this weird coercion thing.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:51.182)

Hmm.

Completely.

Josh Allan Dykstra (30:11.317)

that happens using the technology of management of people. Lots of things need to be managed by the way, right? Like processes, systems, technology, all that crap needs to be managed. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but people do not. Yeah, yeah, but people do not need to be managed. They want to be led. So that's what I'm talking.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:22.77)

spreadsheets, data, sure.

Manage your heart out. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:33.526)

Gosh, it's so true. I don't know anybody who says, yes, I love having a manager who micromanages me and tells me what to do. My day is so much better because I have that person in my life. Yeah, exactly. It's a total joy suck.

Josh Allan Dykstra (30:40.573)

Right. No. Everybody freaking hates it.

Yep. And you know who hates it. And you know who hates it too is the manager. People hate my right like they hate feeling like they have to babysit people. Everybody hates this system. It's just stupid. And it's yeah it's just outdated technology that we haven't replaced.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:51.382)

Hahaha! Yeah!

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:02.622)

Yeah, 100% agree, especially when it goes back to that whole energized place of operating. You can't be energized when you have someone micromanaging you and telling you exactly where to put each widget. When you have autonomy, and this is another reason I love remote work, is because there is autonomy. And there are deliverables. And how you get there? Choose your own path, so to speak. But the reality is, at the end of the day, the deliverables have to be there. Different things work for different people.

The way you get there, we don't care. But we just want you to get there, right? And if you're operating from that place of joy and happiness, you're gonna find a way to get there, back to your access, right? Like we're pushing ourselves just the nth degree further, but we can do it in the safe comfort of whatever that is for each of us and produce incredible results for the client and the firm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (31:52.861)

Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:55.402)

OK, one thing we always talk about is work-life balance, because it is great to talk about all of this.

And I think one of the things that's always missing is the conversation about family. Your kids are home today. My kids are home today. If you hear background noise, everybody's got kids home today, even though it's a Friday. But in thinking through that, how do you encourage in a culture work-life balance? Because as a woman, it means a lot more to me than giving me a breastfeeding station or a pumping station or saying, we have one day a year where you can bring your kids to work. How do we create a culture that is family friendly

Josh Allan Dykstra (32:07.019)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:31.614)

hey, this isn't the 1950s where the wife stayed home with the kids and the husband went off to work. We all have dynamic careers and we all have multiple competing interests and a lot of us have kids. How do we create a culture that embodies that?

Josh Allan Dykstra (32:46.717)

Yeah. So yeah. And yeah, I don't, I don't really believe in, in work life balance. It's, it's really, I think a much better word is integration, right? Like you're at work. Yeah. You're, you're at work a lot, right? If you're like most people, like it's the thing you spend the majority of your waking hours thinking about focused on and doing, um, so there's, there's no real balance, yeah, and there's no real balance to that, right? Like, and so, and in.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:53.356)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:57.278)

It feels a lot better. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:02.637)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:09.674)

Agreed, and your best hours.

Josh Allan Dykstra (33:16.169)

Your work doesn't exist outside of your life, right? It's, this is all your life. You look at your calendar, that's your life. Like that's my life when I look at it, right? So yeah, so there isn't really, so I don't find the idea of balance very helpful, but I think the idea of integration and flexibility becomes really important here. And so from the organizational standpoint, flexibility is key and, and being able to allow.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:19.063)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:24.835)

Mm. Yeah. That's good.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:35.403)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:41.495)

Mm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (33:44.065)

and really require people to come as whole people. So this is one of our vital behaviors, is be a whole person. And we need you to do that when you're at work because that's who you are. We don't want you to leave yourself at the door or in the car or upstairs before you come down the stairs for your morning commute to your desk. Bring your whole person.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:51.473)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:57.236)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (34:10.921)

Um, so you don't feel disintegrated at work. And this is, right. So this is a, a really important thing for organizations, right. Is to allow for that integration, allow for that whole person to come into the job and then allow for just a crap, crap load of flexibility, right? Like we need to be able to be.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:15.252)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (34:30.346)

I love that. A crap load of flexibility. That is the best statement ever. Because you're right. If you think you're going to leave yourself at the door, then all of you isn't showing up. You're not getting the best parts of that person. I always say I'm a better mom because I work. I'm a better worker because I'm a mom. They go hand in hand for me. And seeing that and embracing that, what does a crap load of flexibility look like to you? I love that term. I'm so stealing this, Josh.

Josh Allan Dykstra (34:42.301)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (34:47.839)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (34:55.537)

It's, it's, please do. It really, it really just is an allowance for people to be a whole person, right? Cause, cause stuff comes up, right? It's like we cannot. Exactly.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:06.946)

Sure. Doctor's appointment, soccer games, where do we start? Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (35:11.781)

And we all know it's going to come up, right? And it's like, and oh my goodness, my landlord did this. And oh my goodness, something happened to my mom and I need to go get her from the airport and I like all of this stuff is happening all the time. And so it's just, let's be flexible with the fact that we all know. Yes. We all know we have lives outside of this, this work thing we do together.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:17.366)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:25.047)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:29.386)

And let's be real about it. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:35.094)

Hmm

Josh Allan Dykstra (35:37.861)

as much as we can welcome those lives into the workplace. And it's one of those things that will help your people become inspired people. This is one of the things that creates a culture that outperforms, right? So if you wanna get back to even the business side of this, right? These are the things that matter because they help people feel inspired and cared for and whole.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:47.362)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (35:56.514)

the ROI.

Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (36:04.145)

And unless your people can feel like that, right, they can't bring all their best ideas to work because they're not bringing their whole selves to work.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:04.904)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (36:12.306)

I so agree. And one thing I am adamant that we stop is a culture. And I am always quick to correct. There's not many things I'm quick to correct. But this is one that I just, I'm like, no, we have to stop doing this. It's when someone says, I'm so sorry my kids are home today, or I'm so sorry I have my kids with me when you take a business call. I'm like, of course your kids are with you. You're a human being, and that's quite OK. And in fact,

I have a few of my own you might hear. Like I think just normalizing, like I just so want to normalize that not as that isn't a liability. In fact, to me, that's an asset that you have that because that's me. That's my kids screaming. You can handle a lot of different things like running a podcast while your kids are screaming, right? Things like that I think, yeah, it's a value add. And instead of seeing it as a deficit organizationally, I think when a culture can see it as

Josh Allan Dykstra (36:39.445)

Yeah.

Now.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:05.65)

As an ad, man, that's a game changer, not only an employee retention, satisfaction, um, and once again, back to productivity where we started, what did you say? 220 some odd percent productivity when someone feels inspired. I feel a lot more inspired if I can be who I am. Right.

Josh Allan Dykstra (37:20.289)

225. Yep, exactly. Exactly. It's all this stuff is connected and it's why the culture topic is so important, right? To go all the way back to that, right? This stuff is not, these things don't live in separate little silos, right? Like you're, you're not a separate person, right? Like from, yeah, like all of these things are integrated and what work has done is artificially disintegrated us. And.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:25.206)

That's amazing.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:30.559)

Mm. Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:36.308)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:43.575)

They are.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:47.99)

Yeah, I love that term.

Josh Allan Dykstra (37:48.834)

That is the stuff we're trying to bring back together.

Katie Decker-Erickson (37:53.246)

Yeah, it's a false dichotomy that just doesn't exist. I love it. Okay, let's do our lightning round. I love, love our lightning round. If you could go back to your 20 year old Josh self, what would you say?

Josh Allan Dykstra (38:06.801)

Yeah, I think I've, I think I got two things for this one. Uh, a, uh, those like once in a lifetime crises, they're going to keep happening. Right. There's not going to, they're not going to be just one. There's going to be like many of these. So just like buckle up for that, but you'll be okay. Right. Like it'd be okay, but like, this is going to be a little crazy. Uh, and then the other one that I would say is, you know, be a little more thoughtful about, um, your business partners. I've had some, I've had some pretty.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:10.279)

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:15.39)

Yup. I am here for that. Yup.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:27.38)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:34.641)

Mmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (38:36.065)

pretty tough experiences and some hard learning moments with business partners that I've learned a lot through those experiences. And if I could give myself a little heads up to make those things a little easier, I probably would.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:39.629)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:45.354)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (38:50.846)

Absolutely. It's like a dating, it's like a marriage. I mean, you really gotta have your list of must haves, can't stands and choose wisely. And that's hard to say to a 20 year old too sometimes, right? Like there's not a lot of time for a lot of wisdom in 20 years. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you gotta take a few laps around the block of life to get it. Yeah. Book that has most changed your life personally or professionally.

Josh Allan Dykstra (38:55.102)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (39:01.905)

Yeah, I don't know how much I would understand. But yeah, I would try.

Josh Allan Dykstra (39:09.936)

I know.

Josh Allan Dykstra (39:15.921)

Yeah, I mean, I kind of have two answers for this one too. Is, well, A, the first answer would be my book. Not because it's, you know, fabulous or anything, but because how much I learned in writing it, or like how much it shaped.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:19.842)

Great.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:24.652)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:29.332)

Oh, interesting.

Josh Allan Dykstra (39:30.717)

Right. So I write in order to clarify my own thinking. And so writing a whole book, right. It really just clarified my thinking about what I think about the future of work. So that was really, really helpful for me to do that. And I'd love to write another book sometime. Yeah. The other one that came comes to mind though, is, is a book called strength space leadership. Um, and there's actually not that much content in this book. It's mostly about a strengths assessment. Um,

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:34.424)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:40.951)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:44.27)

That's a great exercise.

Katie Decker-Erickson (39:55.611)

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (39:58.025)

But this book was so formative in helping me shift my thinking from a deficit way of thinking to a strengths-based way of thinking, focusing on what's right with me instead of what's wrong with me and doing that with everyone around me. That has just been completely transformative in the way that I think about the world. So I'd say that one too.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:05.454)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:22.638)

Mm-hmm, and we will put links to both of those in the show notes if you're listening or watching so that you can just click Right on through and then finally I'm interested in your if you're even gonna like our last question time hack Do you believe in time hacks and if so, what is your best one? I feel like I have to preface this but now that we've had this conversation today

Josh Allan Dykstra (40:38.581)

Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (40:41.825)

Yeah. All right. Two answers for this one too. First, first one is I do think there's something to it. And the most important thing that I do is to get everything out of my head. Right. I get it. And it doesn't matter where you put it, put it in a place that works for you. For me, it's, it's my Apple notes. Right. So everything gets out of my head. And that's why I say, do what works for you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:44.13)

All right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:53.298)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (40:59.89)

Oh, you're way more advanced than I am, because this is where I'm at, and I go through these with great regularity. Ha ha. Yeah.

Josh Allan Dykstra (41:09.425)

Right? Like whatever, it doesn't matter where you put it, but put it somewhere that's that that's organized, but get it out of your head. And then the second thing I will say though, kind of maybe to your point is I don't really believe in too much of this. I would say stop focusing on time so much and focus on energy instead. Right? There's, there's more to be gained in working with your energy.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:14.114)

Get it out.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:23.063)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:29.784)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:35.399)

Mmm.

Josh Allan Dykstra (41:35.489)

and trying to do more things during the times of day when you feel energized and doing more activities that you feel energized doing. And right, like putting other people around you who can do the things that drain your energy. Right, there's way more to be gained from energy management than time management in my perspective. And so I would say, look, look there.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:45.087)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:49.173)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (41:55.795)

Hmm.

I totally agree with you. In fact, it's often confused when we're interviewing potential folks to add to our team. A lot of people ask for strengths and weaknesses, and we ask for what is your happy place and what is your not so happy place? And everybody has them. Once again, let's just talk about them and be candid. And if it's not a happy place for you, let's find somebody where it is their happy place. Because there is somebody out there that was meant to do whatever that is, you know? And the difference is so dramatic.

Josh Allan Dykstra (42:24.553)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (42:27.126)

Josh, such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. If you have any questions for Josh, we'll put links at the bottom to all of his materials. And what a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your expertise today.

Josh Allan Dykstra (42:40.477)

My pleasure, thanks for having me.