When creative burnout hits, where do you turn for support and inspiration? What about when your team experiences burnout? Because as we all know, you can’t pour from an empty cup. And as you’ll hear today, sometimes inspiration hits you in the places you least expect it—but you have to be open to it.

You're in for a treat today as Jennifer Bertrand joins us to discuss what you do to stay inspired and creative. Jennifer shares so much with us—from where to find sources of support as a designer to what she does when she needs some inspiration to how she’s been able to sustain her current level of creativity! She drops so many good nuggets, you’re definitely not going to want to miss this conversation! And of course stay til the end for today’s Coaching Corner.

In this episode, we cover:

• Jennifer’s expansive interior design career

• Who in Jennifer’s family inspired her to pursue design

• Where Jennifer turns when she’s needing some inspiration

• How, as a leader, to help your team overcome burnout

• How to move past the tendency in design of mimicry

• The importance of storytelling in design and creativity

• What Jennifer’s creativity has changed and evolved

• What has allowed Jennifer to sustain this level of creativity
  

Have you found yourself battling burnout? As you heard today, you’re not alone. And we can’t emphasize enough the importance of finding a supportive group especially for those tougher moments in your design career. If you’ve found a group you love, tell us about it—say hi on LinkedIn!

More about Jennifer Bertrand

Jennifer is best known as the winner of HGTV’s ‘Design Star’ drawing over 5 million viewers to her no-nonsense, accessible approach to making positive and impactful design changes without breaking the bank.  She is also the winner of Angie’s List first ever “Sleep Sanctuary” contest in conjunction with Arianna Huffington’s book “The Sleep Revolution” mastering a bedroom design to meet the 5 rules of a well-designed bedroom as outlined in Arianna’s book.  

Bertrand currently is the designer on Lifetime channel’s “Military Makeover” with host Montel Williams and has appeared in countless media outlets such as USA Today, The New York Post, Rachel Ray Magazine, Life & Style Magazine, InStyle Magazine and is a frequent contributor to various news and social media outlets. Jennifer currently resides in Weatherby Lake, Missouri with her husband Chris, their son Winston and their adorable rescue dogs.

Links and Mentioned Resources

The Studio

Coaching Strategy Session

Designhounds

The Happiness Book

Journal: Reflection for Six and Seven-Figure Interior Designers

Related Episodes

The Construction Story with Kelly Fridline

Connect with Jennifer Bertrand

Website

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More about Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design

As an interior designer, do you struggle with balancing your passion for creativity with the practical demands and hopes of running a successful business? Whether starting a new venture or scaling an existing firm, the complexities can be overwhelming. Welcome to “Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design,” a podcast designed to bridge the gap between creativity and entrepreneurship. 

This masterclass is hosted by the dynamic Katie Decker-Erickson, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in interior design, a Master's degree in Business Administration, and creator and owner of a multimillion-dollar interior design firm. 

Each episode offers innovative and actionable business strategies, engaging conversations, and practical guidance to help you build and grow a successful design business. Tune in every other Friday on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial skills. (Topics and language are kid/family friendly.)

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Success by Design: Mastering the Business of Interior Design is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Success by Design: Mastering the business of interior design follows

Katie (00:06.936)

Hey Jennifer, welcome to the show.

jennifer. :) (00:09.082)

Yay, thanks for having me!

Katie (00:10.936)

We're so excited that you are here because you bring such a wealth of industry knowledge. And what I love is you're known in the industry and you're known to people who sit at home and flip through HGTV and they're going to go, Jennifer, it's you. And so we're so excited to have you. You have had a diverse career. How many years you've been in this industry?

jennifer. :) (00:21.663)

I'm sorry.

jennifer. :) (00:26.61)

I think it's like 24ish or 20 something long.

Katie (00:31.776)

Yeah, a long, long enough time to know that you love it. When did it first hit you that this is what you were meant to do?

jennifer. :) (00:39.222)

So when I was little, my dad was military and we moved every two to four years and my mom would pick the ugliest house and I would watch her make it beautiful. And I kind of fell in love with that. And then seeing every castle and chateau in Western Europe really made me fall in love with beautiful design that was beautiful forever. And then I love to watch how America messes all up and tries our best.

Katie (00:49.102)

I love it.

Katie (01:03.512)

So well put. We are trying so hard and our failure is not from lack of effort. It was interesting before the show we were talking about that and like you go and you see these castles from thousands of years ago and then to your point, you made such a good one. We have to change it every 10 years in the United States. What are we doing wrong? Oh, that's such a thing.

jennifer. :) (01:08.942)

Thanks for watching!

jennifer. :) (01:21.674)

Well, and if you look at it in Europe, your design is layered stories over time. Family stories, adventures, trips, all of that. And in America, we think we've got to do it all at once when really it's just got to be layered and love and full of patience and, you know, slowly we're getting there. We're just a young country, as, you know, the Hamilton musical would say.

Katie (01:28.477)

Hmm.

Katie (01:45.056)

Yes, that's such a good way to put it. And in fact, okay, we have to talk about the guys behind you because that's actually, I know, I'm sorry, but when I saw those pop up, I'm like, we're gonna have a conversation. And then you had those commissioned actually.

jennifer. :) (01:57.546)

So I am a big fan. So my mom is a sculptor with a sculpture in the Reagan Presidential Library. And my father, after military, was an art museum director. And I don't say that to be like all douchey or anything. But I say it because I grew up with a love of art. Like my first art, like fourth grade I entered an art contest and I did a ball relief carving out a porcelain as if that was normal, because we had kilns in our house. But so I found an artist who was awesome and I asked him during COVID to paint me these.

Katie (02:04.138)

Wow.

Katie (02:12.068)

Yeah.

Katie (02:22.308)

That's awesome.

jennifer. :) (02:27.62)

them it was like the movie because anyone who knows me knows like I take design very seriously but I laugh through life and I think you should because in our industry something's always gonna go wrong so you just gotta have a good attitude through it.

Katie (02:43.064)

Well, and it's so much teamwork, like stuffiness just doesn't work. And I think those, the designers of Long ago who were the designers and manage the industry are so passe. It's like, let's get real. We have to work as a team to get this to work for a client in both form and function.

jennifer. :) (02:46.341)

Yes.

jennifer. :) (02:57.706)

Yeah, I love when I meet, I call them grown-up designers, all our friends that are, you know, killing it in the AD 100 and whatnot. And I love when they're user-friendly. They carry the high-end, elite concept, but they're still like, nice. One of my friends said, um, designers are in the high-end world, the only hired help allowed to use the front door, which makes me laugh, and I love that saying.

Katie (03:01.396)

Yes.

Katie (03:06.039)

right?

Katie (03:23.152)

That's awesome. I'm going to steal that. It's so true, right? It's so, so true. But no, user friendly. I think that's a great term. It's such a good reminder. We talk about it a lot on the show, but just the idea of always approaching something humbly and just with kindness. I feel like kindness, especially post COVID is just such a hard thing to come by regardless of what industry you're in, regardless of what socioeconomic demographic you're working with.

jennifer. :) (03:48.486)

Yeah, because what being a military kid I have learned that the world always comes full circle I'm doing a warm fuzzy like well I'm doing a warm fuzzy project right now for a large commercial firm that does national work Ends up the guy making our cabinets for a teachers lounge makeover warm fuzzy He was my old barista at Starbucks ten years ago, and I was like And he remembered he was like you were nice and you tipped I was like thank God I tipped

Katie (03:55.208)

Yes, it does

Katie (04:10.899)

No way.

Katie (04:17.948)

Right? Who knew that piece of karma was going to boomerang so fast back? That's so good. So after so many years in the industry, I want to have the conversation about inspiration, creativity and burnout, because the reality is all three are real. For any of us that have been in here for a hot minute, when creativity hits, it's great. And when it's not there, it's really, really hard. And when you're knee deep in a kajillion projects, you can use up all that inspiration.

jennifer. :) (04:18.839)

I didn't know that!

Katie (04:45.228)

Where do you go to get refilled? And so tell me about burnout for you. When have you experienced burnout in your career and what do you see as being the common factor every time it happens?

jennifer. :) (04:52.065)

Yeah.

jennifer. :) (04:56.422)

I'm gonna blame menopause. I'm just kidding, but it is

Katie (04:58.952)

I will blame perimenopause. Can we do a whole episode on that? No, I'm there for that.

jennifer. :) (05:04.574)

every dude just checked out. But seriously though, if you think about it, it really is, one, it's where you are in your life. People will always suck you dry of your creativity and it's never going to end. And I had to force myself to have like office hours and be really like true to it. I am not working the weekends. I don't care what you say, high five. I will never see my family if I do work the weekends. I will give the occasional evening, but I'm lucky I don't

Katie (05:06.452)

Yeah.

Katie (05:14.807)

Mmm.

jennifer. :) (05:34.208)

have to as much but I try very hard not to. To get inspired. So because I was a little kid who grew up overseas I way back when thought I was gonna be a fashion designer and I love color and art and I was an art teacher long before I was a designer so I've always just loved the creative and color so when I'm feeling like I need a jolt of love I have like a couple go-tos. Okay so number one everyone should do this whether you're a designer or not. If you

Katie (05:45.636)

Hmm.

Katie (05:52.857)

Yeah.

jennifer. :) (06:04.188)

everywhere but whatever your TV is throw on YouTube and put on walking tours around cities so I'll put on Paris for the weekend I'll put on like Copenhagen this summer we get that we're taking our child to Europe for the first time so where I put on city so one you just hear the sights and sounds of cities and life and it's beautiful and then you can always have a new adventure don't do the ones with the cheesy elevator music I mean I celebrate them but not it's

Katie (06:14.946)

Ooh, yes.

jennifer. :) (06:33.808)

Do the ones... no, they're like a bad restaurant. But...

Katie (06:34.176)

But I don't participate with them. Yes

jennifer. :) (06:39.526)

Yeah, the other thing I love to do is at Barnes and Nobles that still exist or online, you can get European magazines. So like I love Italian Elle decor, English Elle decoration. I love the French version. And I will get the magazines of the Paris and Milan fashion shows. So I get a whole rundown of every fashion house and they're ready to wear and what they presented. And so I'm seeing what colors, patterns, textures are coming.

Katie (07:00.432)

Hmm

jennifer. :) (07:09.56)

feeds my soul and then I go oh yeah I live in the Midwest and I shall go have a steak

Katie (07:16.72)

I should go have a steak, but now I have been inspired by Paris and I haven't had to get on a plane and do that. That's actually really practical tips. What I love about those is that they're not expensive. They're easily accessible no matter where you are in the country or the world, you can come back to those and know that they're there to help pick you up. What do you think, where do you find the motivation? Obviously you come from a huge long line of artists. It's cool. That's amazing that your mom is in the Reagan Library. That's incredible. Did you grow up?

jennifer. :) (07:40.046)

Mom? Is it in the Reagan Library? Yep.

Katie (07:45.496)

playing in the art world than like having did your mom let you not play with a kiln directly but did you grow up sculpting and in that world did they invite you to participate in their art?

jennifer. :) (07:55.838)

Yeah, so we had bags of clay around our house. We had two kilns in the garage. Like it was just normal for us. And my dad, when he was in his master's, he was a painter at the University of Hawaii. And he got really tan and he would pretend he was local and sell paintings to tourists. So like one, my family's probably all hustlers and gypsies, but they definitely love art. And I think the principles of art carry into design.

Katie (08:18.547)

Hehehe

jennifer. :) (08:25.712)

celebrate what we do, but it also makes me approach artwork in homes differently because of my journey.

Katie (08:33.732)

So talk to me about your team and burnout. Like when you're seeing for those, we're obviously going through this series right now of how to start a design firm and how to grow a design firm. As you're growing, you're gonna see your people and I'm sure you've seen this hit burnout at different points and just lack creativity or you feel like the designs are becoming redundant. What do you do as far as a leader when it comes to a team and helping them get over that hurdle and get past that point?

jennifer. :) (08:58.158)

So I am a small boutique firm, so I have project managers, but I do the lead design on it. But if I were to offer that advice to anyone, I would say one, you're not alone. That's everyone. Two, talk it out. And there are some really beautiful private forums of designers online that really just celebrate and high five each other to like make them feel good about where you are. But what I also love is there are groups like Design Hounds and Veronica who has that group

Katie (09:04.46)

Nice.

Katie (09:10.084)

Hmm.

jennifer. :) (09:27.952)

designers on trips they have one that Sherry Qualls is doing that does groups of women and they do like get-togethers and they're inspiring each other and they're all industry and what I love is it's everyone from every journey and every story and then they're all just being nice to each other and making each other feel good about where they're at.

Katie (09:30.52)

Hmm.

Katie (09:45.06)

Hmm.

Katie (09:50.8)

Back to being nice again. Okay, so I'm glad you brought up online. In the world of online design, I think when we go through those burnout phases or those times when our creative juices don't feel as flowy as other times, it's easy to start mimicking other design. How do you find a way to remain true to your design and what has made you great at what you do? How do you dig deep to get past that desire or the tendency that

jennifer. :) (10:07.778)

Ow.

Katie (10:19.36)

Maybe you don't, but I feel like it's common of mimicry.

jennifer. :) (10:22.346)

Yeah, so I think the thing is this start each room going what's expected and how can I do it different? So like a dining room you go Oh and someone's gonna vomit a sideboard and a mirror and some lamps or I'm gonna do this and I'm just gonna wallpaper it But what happens when you do what's not expected? What happens if it becomes a library and a bookshelf or something like that? The other thing is I think yeah, and what if you look to commercial design and restaurants inspiring?

Katie (10:29.705)

Mmm, I love that.

Katie (10:41.413)

Hmm.

Katie (10:45.857)

Ooh, I like that.

Katie (10:51.216)

Hmm.

jennifer. :) (10:52.28)

in the last five years. But I think in the world of Pinterest, I think the thing is, use it to inspire you, but then say, okay, what can I do to make it my own? And being really cognizant and aware of it, because sometimes I'll do it to help show someone, like, hey, this is a vibe we're going for, but I just always go, yeah, it's kind of lame if I plagiarize it. And I just think at some point, you have to challenge yourself.

Katie (10:53.95)

Yes, they have.

Katie (11:06.137)

Hmm.

Katie (11:18.308)

Totally.

jennifer. :) (11:22.42)

Like there are some clients you just want to run as fast as you can and they slip through the system And you don't know how they got through the system, but at the same time you

Katie (11:31.992)

We all have names popping into our heads right now of different ones that were like, yeah, my life would have been fine if that had never crossed my path.

jennifer. :) (11:35.298)

Yes.

jennifer. :) (11:40.222)

Yes, no, I just think the thing is if you're constantly like if you take the time to go what how can I do it different? What story can I tell differently and like if you are going to do something and it's inspired by someone else? credit that person man the Upsetness that people get by having their work stolen. I was watching a wallpaper person on instagram this morning She literally had a slideshow of everyone who plagiarized her

Katie (11:41.581)

Yeah.

Katie (11:57.715)

I agree.

jennifer. :) (12:10.236)

big companies to small companies and you know it's disheartening for her so I'd say yeah.

Katie (12:13.213)

Aww.

Katie (12:16.46)

I think, well, that is disheartening and that does lead to burnout because it's like this was my idea and then it got stolen. And especially in a field that it's predominantly women, I feel like of all places we should be giving credit, it's back to other women who came up with the idea, built the design concept, whatever it may be, give the credit where credit's due. Well said, like so well said. Where do you go to find inspiration that's perhaps unexpected that you...

jennifer. :) (12:38.766)

Yeah.

Katie (12:44.28)

You're like, this is really far out there because I love what you said. Don't do what is expected. Like anyone can vomit the sideboard and the table and, and. So when you're going to get that out of the box creativity is there something that speaks to you personally in your soul based on your family history?

jennifer. :) (13:01.91)

Well, part of like mine is all storytelling. All military kids are storytellers because we've lived so many different lives. Like my life is weird what I've been through and I'm 48 and you know, which does go back to, before I go into that, I just read an article that said, on the happiness curve 47.2 is the low on the happiness curve. I'm 48 so I'm pushing off the bottom and I want, if anyone's listening to this,

Katie (13:09.865)

Yeah, yeah.

Katie (13:21.71)

Yep.

Katie (13:26.756)

You're coming up.

jennifer. :) (13:32.104)

If you're right before 47.2, you're gonna be okay and just know you're gonna be fine. But I think for like inspiration stuff, I usually dig into my clients and I ask them, I say I'm gonna ask you a really bunch of creepy questions. We're really gonna talk about what you love. I wanna hear the stories. I wanna hear all that. Sometimes I'll go clucking out because I wanna talk and just get to know them. But really it's about pulling it from them and their happiness moments.

Katie (13:37.775)

Yes.

Katie (13:56.057)

Yeah.

Katie (14:00.26)

I love what you said about happiness curve. We'll put a link in the show notes to the book about that. What is so fascinating about happiness curve, and this ties right into the idea of burnout, inspiration, and creativity. The book was written across all cultures, which I think is fascinating. There's not one culture that is just crushing it when it comes to happiness, when you look at life cycle. And now, when reading that book, it was fascinating to watch that, that every culture does this. And you eventually come out of it.

jennifer. :) (14:14.306)

Mmm.

Katie (14:29.944)

But if you're feeling a lull in your creativity, know that some of this literally is developmental based on where you're at in your life cycle. And I don't wanna say if that should encourage you at this point, but just know that you're not alone, right? This is a thing and it does take a hot minute to come out of. How do you feel that your creativity has changed over time? If I were to go back and talk to the 25 year old Jennifer designer versus the woman who sits before us today, how has that evolved?

jennifer. :) (14:58.766)

Gosh, I mean I was so cute and lovely, but I was so naive. Like, I-

Katie (15:01.667)

I'm sorry.

jennifer. :) (15:04.402)

love like my some of it is well if I look at old videos of Design Star you can see the young naive Jen I just hadn't gone through the industry long enough to really know design I approached it so innocently and just because I loved it which is what design should be about but at the same time like I feel like I've come so full circle on how to play with scale how to um like for example I

jennifer. :) (15:34.256)

designer or an inexperienced designer would let him kind of bulldoze what he wanted and like I'm probably I say things like I don't tell you how to argue the end of a case so you should not interfere in my world and this is why you hired me and you know of course everyone awkwardly like flees the room but I

Katie (15:40.396)

Mm-hmm.

Katie (15:55.952)

It's like dropping oil into water. It just like spreads to the sides of the bowl, yeah.

jennifer. :) (16:00.398)

But he knows I'm not saying it to be mean. I said I'm doing it to make him money. Like I want your investment to be good. I want to show you what I can do. And then if I find all once you get to a point and you're working with CEOs and high-end people who really are successful in their own worlds and they have certain expectations because of how they run their business, I think in the end they appreciate the honesty and the cut and dry aspect of it. At the same time, I want anyone listening to this.

Katie (16:03.257)

No.

jennifer. :) (16:30.372)

to know, I still have lows. I still fail. I got fired on New Year's Eve from a project which was great because it was a good firing. I was very happy. But at the same time, one, I was like, who fires someone on New Year's Eve? But I want people, which is fine, I'm cool with it, but I want someone to know that just because I've been doing this a long time and I play in television, I still have times where I'm like, man, I sucked on that or whatever.

Katie (16:46.486)

No doubt.

Katie (16:51.747)

Yeah.

Katie (16:58.756)

Hmm.

jennifer. :) (17:00.452)

learning and growing and being a small boutique firm I'm still figuring things out because I never thought I'd I wasn't trying to grow my firm I thought I was gonna play in television and write a book and do other things and I'm still here I love it but I'm still always learning

Katie (17:07.024)

Mmm.

Katie (17:16.677)

Hmm.

I love that the curiosity quotient, I think, is a huge thing when it comes to avoiding burnout too, is realizing there's so much out there I still don't know. And that's become the mantras of my 40s. I don't know about you. I'm loving 40s. My body is in a different place, let's not lie. But I am every wrinkle, every Botox injection I have fought for. And I am okay with that because as a woman on our team, she has a fabulous sweatshirt. It said,

This is my eighth rodeo in the third state. And when you can say that in life, and when you've walked and done enough laps around the block of life, as I call it, I think it also manifests in your client, in your work and your relationship with your clients, where you can say, I know what I'm doing, that's why I'm here, you do need to trust me on that. And also just being able to say no to the clients, not even letting them in the front door, as you put it. Like, no, you're not a fit, you're not gonna like what I create for you, this is not what we do.

jennifer. :) (17:49.881)

Ah!

Katie (18:16.0)

And occasionally, like this happens, residential clients will approach us and we don't do residential. And so it's like, oh, can you please, oh, and I'm like, I am not the person to talk to about your kitchen remodel and your gorgeous home. Like, I don't wanna, oh, that's the dog. I forgot to put him up. You know what it is? There's a golden retriever walking by that he really wants, he's just jealous about. But yeah, I think that like to know your lane and where to stay because you're comfortable in who you are. And that's something that I didn't have at 24.

jennifer. :) (18:28.938)

Your dog agrees with you. No, I love it.

jennifer. :) (18:45.718)

But don't you think that makes you like understand every crazy older woman you've ever met? Like, what—

Katie (18:51.624)

Oh, I love them so much more because I'm becoming one of them.

jennifer. :) (18:55.795)

No, I...was laughing I was at a party and this is the sounds douchey but I just say it because it's so funny I was at a private design party in London at the Serpentine gallery I started having I know I started having a hot flash I was talking to this lady who worked for like the Prince Charles campaign for wool and um I think I always tell people I'm doing burpees in my mind because I'm just sweating so much like it is horrible and I'm like does everyone else

Katie (19:07.472)

Fabulous

jennifer. :) (19:27.052)

I'm like the Jack Black of design, but like at some point you're like I Understand crazy lady. I met 30 years ago and now we're all those people and it's awesome But JLo makes it look great. So I'm following in

Katie (19:38.844)

Yeah, she makes it look great. You know, she's got herself a good hormone patch. You just know it like bless her heart, but she has to.

jennifer. :) (19:47.39)

Yeah, she's probably branding it. It's coming out next year. I would top one of those on my list. Are you kidding me? An art concern? No, I'm not. I'm sorry.

Katie (19:51.376)

I would slap one of those on my stomach. Are you kidding me? In a heartbeat, there you go. No problem whatsoever. I love what you also said about work-life balance. And I think that's a huge part to supporting creativity, inspiration, and avoiding burnout. How you said, I'm out for the weekend. Checking out is so important because you cannot check in to refilling your cup until you check out of the grind. And even though it's what we love, it's still outputs.

Right? It's still creating. It's pushing things out. It's letting things come out of you. You can never pour in if you're constantly pushing out. It's like swimming upstream. What else have you found beyond checking out for the weekends allows you to sustain this level of creativity and this boutique firm where you're able to go and do all these things.

jennifer. :) (20:35.658)

One, I always turn on notifications on my phone. That is a good gift for yourself. I know some designers are great with no texting at all. In my world, I text. And like, the best gift I gave myself, which once one person told me I was unprofessional, but I strongly believe in it, is my voicemail says, I don't believe in voicemail. And it says, you can text me or email me, but I'm not gonna listen to a voicemail. It was the most freeing thing I've done for my soul.

Katie (20:46.5)

same.

jennifer. :) (21:05.392)

look at it. I love it. And like, yes, it's absurd. Yes. Who does that? I love it.

Katie (21:10.976)

No, I'm laughing because when I called to book you for the show because our producer tried to reach you and I know you're A busy lady and I was like I'm gonna track her down like I'm gonna go find her I'm gonna call her we're gonna get her on the show and literally was like hi Thanks so much for calling if you know me, you know, I will never respond to your voicemail But you are welcome to text me and I was like I kind of looked at my phone for a minute I'm like, huh

That's pretty genius actually. And it was so funny cause the moment I texted you, you texted right back and you're like, yeah, I'm going to take care of my mom and I got this and that. And like, I'd love to come on the show. And I'm like, you know, that is a great thing. Cause you have found something that works for you and works for your clients, but still gives you autonomy to turn off those notifications.

jennifer. :) (21:49.342)

It's the best gift only one lady said it was not professional and honestly my thing is you can't be something to everyone And that's not my crowd anyway, and I'm never gonna be the like super polished designer I'm gonna be the one that makes you laugh, but still gets you what you want And we're gonna have fun, but I'm also gonna show up in a trucker hat and like we're just gonna do our thing So, you know

Katie (21:58.09)

No.

Katie (22:03.257)

Yeah.

Katie (22:10.608)

I love it.

I always say it's funny. People are like, it's such a glamorous life. Like being a designer. I'm like, do you want to come out with me on install day or anybody on our team? Like trucker hats, t-shirts, tennis shoes, like no, but I love that you think that that's absolutely adorable. Well, and I love what you said too. I think this is really important about you can't be everything to everyone. And I, we always say I have another line that's an appendage to that, that we talk about on the show. If you're trying to be everything to everyone, you are nothing to no one because you cannot meet.

the needs, know your demographic, stick with them, know what feeds your soul, go back and revisit it, and rinse and repeat. And that seems to be a pretty good cycle I have found in my business.

jennifer. :) (22:52.926)

No, I love it. And when I start to like hate people, I do more commercial, I have done, I found a niche, I don't, some people listening may know this. I have a son who had 20 surgeries. So when I won Design Star, I paused and had to focus on real life. Well, I ended up designing Ronald McDonald houses. I'm doing, I've done two in Chicago, one at Northwestern Hospital, I'm doing one in Tampa, we're doing a playground in Houston. And it just, we did projects with the bears and the bulls

Katie (23:06.051)

Oof.

Katie (23:10.287)

Yeah.

Katie (23:20.204)

Aww.

jennifer. :) (23:22.82)

Sheafs and the Royals. It just kind of, through that, something poopy in life really turned into a positive because it's just all about perspective and how you look at it. And then I started doing out of town gigs and out of country gigs. And I just kind of found my niche of humans. Every now and then someone slips through, but I am very lucky.

Katie (23:23.275)

Yes.

Katie (23:33.642)

Yep.

Katie (23:45.272)

Oh, okay, that's the golden nugget. I found my niche of humans. That is so everything, because happy clients refer other people, and not only that, they make you happy. They're people you wanna work with. Again, finding your niche of humans. Don't be worried about closing the sale. Don't be worried about creating the next, not that we don't love the 8,100 folks, but don't be worried about that. Worry about finding your niche of humans, and then run hard and run with them. Start running.

jennifer. :) (23:53.494)

That's so epic.

Katie (24:10.528)

I think this applies to dating too. Back in the day I used to say this, but like start running and get busy doing what you know you're meant to do. And then look to your right, look to your left and see who shows up around you and embrace them and run with them because it's amazing what you can accomplish together.

jennifer. :) (24:20.844)

Yes.

jennifer. :) (24:25.578)

Well, and to your point, like, I think sometimes, like, when you look at what you deem as the kind of designer you want to be and become, that is awesome. However, at some point, you need to put blinders on, just do your thing, who cares? Validation only needs to come from within. When you're old and jaded, you will feel it. And then you just are good with it. And I love the milestones and the goals you can set within our industry. But at the same time, if you don't get that,

Katie (24:48.184)

Yep.

jennifer. :) (24:55.672)

that, make smaller ones that are achievable that you're like nailed it done it you know and all of that like I used to go one day I'm gonna do an out of country job and now I've got three no four so like it and I don't say that to sound like a jerk but it just that was a goal of mine yes it's vacations and design.

Katie (25:08.132)

Awesome.

Katie (25:12.064)

No, but it was a goal. Yeah.

Katie (25:17.236)

Oh, that's not a bad life. I'm not gonna lie. Last thought for you, what is the most controversial thing that you can think of when it comes to this idea of inspiration, creativity, and staying at the top of your game and avoiding burnout that seems to be really controversial in our industry or that someone might disagree with you about, but that you feel very emphatically about?

jennifer. :) (25:39.142)

Oh, that's a good question. But I mean, well, our industry is really like strong about the copying on Pinterest. Like that's a big one. Like if you're going to make your name by just plagiarizing people, I would say it'll only take you so far. I will say at some point someone's going to call you out because I you watch like builders use designers work to get jobs or stuff like that. At some point, that comes back to get whoever.

jennifer. :) (26:09.856)

I have found to feel good. I really just you know Instead of getting green with envy just really celebrate each other So if instead when you start to feel jealous that someone else nailed it and killed it tell them they nailed it and killed it Do that it feels so much better than feeling jealous, which you know, it's hard social media can kill your creative soul My advice is take a break take a sabbatical and for me sometimes I'm like, yeah

Katie (26:17.104)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Katie (26:33.342)

Yup.

jennifer. :) (26:39.096)

everyone's great I celebrate it but at some point I just want to watch a Will Farrell movie and not care about design

Katie (26:47.84)

I so agree there's that classic expression that I'm going to absolutely butcher but like if you see a woman who's tiara is crooked don't tell her just go straighten it like there's so many opportunities as women we have to build each other up I love when you find something that someone's doing really well compliment them there's nothing it's just it's so cliche and it almost sounds cheesy but when you're having a bad day just find somebody who's got that killer dress or that amazing lipstick and just tell them I think if we did that even in just life what a different world we would have before us.

And it's not always comfortable. It's kind of weird sometimes, or people can be taken aback like, oh, you noticed, like, thank you. But I do it for my soul because it makes me feel so much better, depending on where I'm at in the day.

jennifer. :) (27:15.009)

Oh my-

jennifer. :) (27:26.377)

Oh yeah.

I get probably people think I'm creepy often. Like one time in New York, this woman was like dressed amazing. I was like, you look amazing. I love your whole being. And she's like, do I know you? And I was like, no, but I'm going to tell you look awesome. And then one time on a plane, I met this lady and she had like a Burt Reynolds shirt. And I was like, your shirt's amazing and your bangs are amazing. Ends up she was sitting next to me and she was like the second costume designer on a Marvel movie. And I met, I've met the, and we're still friends.

Katie (27:42.763)

Yeah.

jennifer. :) (27:57.012)

humans by just talking to people. I think so often we stop learning people's names, we don't make eye contact if they're not shiny and pretty. That is my biggest advice to people, is see everyone no matter what they do in life and you will benefit.

Katie (27:58.253)

Yes.

Katie (28:04.192)

Yeah.

Katie (28:14.892)

That is, and that even is so true of all the subs on every job. See that tile contractor and talk to him about the way he's putting it in. Kelly Fridline and we'll do a hyperlink back to that episode. Such a great thing. You can learn from everybody and they're interesting. People are interesting. I don't know why, but I think people are absolutely fascinating and I love to hear their stories because no two are alike. And just about the time you think you know someone.

You're shocked. Speaking of riding on a plane. This happened to me just a couple, not even three weeks ago. There's this older woman who gets on sits next to me on the plane and then she boards with a gentleman who sits next to my husband because we're in a row with our kids. And I said, oh, that's so lovely. You and your husband are out for a trip. And she goes, oh, honey, that is not my husband. My husband died 64 years ago and I sat there for about four months feeling bad for myself. And then you know what I realized? He's dead. And I'm not.

And you know what? I went out and got myself a boyfriend and we're going skiing this weekend. And I said, how old are you, Pam? And she goes 84. And I just thought, I'm like, I'm so glad. Just that one pause. I'm like, yeah, he's dead. I'm not got herself a boyfriend and they're off skiing for the weekend. And I was just like, now there's some squad goals. Seriously. Like that's something I want to aspire to after like, she's just got busy living life.

jennifer. :) (29:25.646)

Hahaha

Katie (29:35.672)

And what an inspiration. I mean, I think that's the greatest thing about this topic is sometimes inspiration hits you in the places you least expect it, but you have to be open to it.

jennifer. :) (29:44.842)

Yep. You have to be aware to see it.

Katie (29:47.916)

Yeah, Jennifer, great conversation. Anything that you want to add.

jennifer. :) (29:50.062)

Bye.

No, I just would say if you feel like a lone wolf, it's okay if you're listening to this. And I'm a big fan of cheesiness. Like, I don't watch like rom-coms or anything, but at the same time, I think talk it out. Find your group of people to support you. There are a lot of beautiful groups of designers that no question is stupid. We can all help each other. I've learned so many things the hard way. I had beginning designers that I would say, text me, I'll share what I know and all of that.

Katie (29:57.68)

Hmm.

jennifer. :) (30:22.388)

So there are always those of us out there who will help you along the way.

Katie (30:27.34)

I love that about our industry. Such a good conversation. It's such a privilege to have you on the show and thank you for your time.

jennifer. :) (30:32.342)

Yay! Thanks for having me!

Katie (30:35.426)

It's awesome.