Have you found yourself wondering how to start an interior design business? Curious about what qualities and skills you need to be successful? The truth is—there are some really fun things about entrepreneurship… and there are some less than glamorous things you should know about. Fellow interior designer, business owner, and coach Michelle Lynne Pant joins me for this episode. 

Whether you’re a designer currently working as an employee at a firm or you’re working in Corporate America dreaming of a career change—you won’t want to miss this conversation! This installment of our Creating a Design Business Series gives you incredible insights on not only what it’s like to be a designer, but also what to expect when starting your own design firm. You’ll walk away with the clarity you need to know whether you want to enter the world of interior design entrepreneurship—or not.

In this episode, we cover:

• Advice for designers who are ready to start their own firms

• The vision Michelle had for her design firm initially (and how it’s evolved)

• What Michelle was surprised by after entering the design industry

• How HGTV paints a misleading picture of interior design

• The key to attracting your most ideal design clients

• The personality trait you must embody to have a successful design business

• How to know if starting a design firm is the right thing for you to do

• What mindset and intuition have to do with running a design firm

Has this interview gotten you excited about starting your own design business (or even entering the design industry)? We would love to hear from you! Come find Michelle and me on Instagram.

More about Michelle Lynne Pant

Michelle is the CEO of the award winning interior design firm, ML Interiors Group, and leads the year long program, "The Interior Design Business Bakery" which coaches designers how to scale their business from 5 to multiple 6-figures in revenue with the profit & passion "baked in". 

Links and Mentioned Resources

Women vs Women vs Men by Barbara Streisand

What Color is My Parachute

Designed For the Creative Mind Podcast

Connect with Michell Lynne Pant

Podcast

Website

Instagram

Facebook

This episode is brought to you by DBM Consulting

DBM Consulting is our go to partner for exploring cutting edge software and technology, from strategic analysis reporting to custom software development and integrations. Visit dbm.consulting/colorworks to quality for a promotional rate and receive a free 30 minute consultation.

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

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More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:02.781)

Hey Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle (00:04.906)

Thank you so much, Katie. I'm excited to be here.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:07.805)

We are so excited that you are here, especially to talk all things design. So as I was sharing with you before we went on the air, so to speak, um, last episode, we had talked to Mark Bernheimer about his experience launching his own business and we ran kind of tandem tracks on that.

I love that you're on the show because I want to talk about the design business specifically and starting your own design firm. You've been around a hot minute like we have, which is great. And I love that. Where you are today, is it where you envisioned being back when you launched in 08?

Michelle (00:34.475)

Yes.

Michelle (00:43.07)

No, I honestly, I started my business thinking that it would be just me, you know, working, setting my own schedule, making a bucket of money, making places pretty. Yeah. Young little sweet me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:56.665)

Yeah, yeah. We can totally laugh about that. Young little sweet me, you had all these ideas of what it was going to be. And now we are where we are. And yes, I can relate to that. It doesn't feel anything like that. Tell me more about that.

Michelle (01:07.674)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (01:14.686)

Well, I originally came out of corporate and I was in an industry that I didn't particularly love, but I really enjoyed the people that I worked with and I had golden handcuffs. So it didn't totally suck. They sold and went to a larger company and I literally just said, okay, God, what next? And so when I got into this business, it was because

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:27.315)

Uh, yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:32.329)

Mm.

Michelle (01:40.502)

Friends had always asked me to come over and help. These were things that I loved to do and so forth. And I look back now, Katie, and my designs were so remedial.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:50.557)

Oh, we all do that. You look back and you're like, did I really pitch that to a client who thought that was a good idea? Totally. Yeah, I feel that.

Michelle (01:55.915)

That color on the walls was supposed to be so fancy, but it was terrible. So I literally just thought that I could work for myself, set my own schedule, and, you know, chill out and have a good life. But getting into this business, holy cow, I had no idea how hard it was. And I had managed multi-million dollar business units outside of design and thought I was a badass.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:14.557)

Yeah, yeah, it's a total thing.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:21.373)

Mm-hmm.

then came to the world of design, and we all had a humbling moment, for sure. Well, there are things that's really interesting because there are things about the design business that are very different from other industries. What did you immediately realize, and then what have you unraveled that are key differences about our industry compared to others?

Michelle (02:26.779)

Very much so.

Michelle (02:35.606)

Yes.

Michelle (02:42.614)

Well, so I had a bit of an evolution. When I got into my business in 2008, I was focused at the time at more of a home staging and quote unquote redesign type of business, stair stepped out of management. And then I was focusing on.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:48.417)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:54.466)

Mmm. Sure.

Michelle (03:03.87)

I guess the home staging. I pivoted really strong into design probably around 2013. So there was a little bit of a lack of confidence, a lack of knowledge, all the things. What I was really surprised about even in 2013, 2014 was just how, how there was a lack of

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:11.129)

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:16.145)

I feel that.

Michelle (03:28.178)

standardization, there was a lack of business education, the, heck, we were still faxing orders to our vendors. I was like, who's faxing anymore? So it, yes, exactly. So I was surprised about that. I was also surprised at how little, I don't wanna say support, but everything was so secretive.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:30.463)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:37.941)

Mm-hmm, mm. Yeah, the War of 1812 called and they want their fax machine back. Yeah, I feel that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:55.145)

Yeah.

Michelle (03:55.338)

Everything was so very secretive when I had questions about how do you do this, how do you do that, and there was not a lot of places to go for that help. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:59.187)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:03.281)

Oh here, let me show you or come along or this is what I do or it was this is kind of my domain and please don't enter.

Michelle (04:13.139)

or you have to earn your stripes and you have to figure it out yourself because I had to. And quite frankly now I look back and I think that it's because a lot of designers didn't know what they're doing. So instead they just looked like they had their shizzle together, right? But in the back it's like they were running around like maniacs and not making any money. So the design community I think has evolved.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:15.753)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to struggle.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:24.961)

That's a really interesting point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:37.505)

I'm gonna put a big.

I think it has evolved. I'm gonna put a big statement out there though and say I still think that's a huge problem with our industry. We call them jobbists, but it's I wanna have a job, but I run it more like a hobby. I'm not making any money, but everything that everyone thinks I do, right, it looks great on Instagram.

Michelle (04:47.046)

Oh, absolutely.

Michelle (04:56.167)

Looks pretty on my Instagram.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:00.081)

I live this fabulous life of picking out really bold, rich, beautiful, sophisticated fabrics and wallpapers and all these things, which I find is about 5% of the job. It's the business side that drives everything else. But I still think it's a huge problem in our industry because it's taking that left and right brain again. We get these really creative people, right? And then we're like,

Michelle (05:09.568)

Right.

Michelle (05:15.959)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (05:21.015)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:21.521)

let's go sit down and have a two hour accounting meeting about your PNL sheet and your brand and what are your quarterly taxes and the CPA needs to get you this. And it's just like, wah, and the eyes glaze over, right? And everyone's like, no, don't make me do it. I'd rather have an appendectomy without anesthesia. And you're like, I know, but that's part of running the business side of it, right?

Michelle (05:30.449)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (05:36.159)

Yes!

Michelle (05:46.05)

Absolutely. And I think myself having come from, you know, multiple layers of management in other people's businesses, I personally, I didn't take into consideration that I needed to run my business like a business until I fell on my ass. So coming, thought I was a badass, fell on my ass. Yeah, it was not pretty.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:52.765)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:59.681)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:03.809)

I love the honesty. I think that's so many people.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:12.177)

You know what though, but sometimes the only way to go up is to completely hit rock bottom, right? And go, this isn't working. Whatever I'm doing isn't how I envisioned this. This isn't working for my lifestyle. This isn't something that I want to be doing long term. This I'm not making any money. How am I not making any money? That's the number one thing I think that people run into in our industry. And that's kind of what you have to do to say help.

Michelle (06:18.99)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (06:28.865)

Right.

Michelle (06:34.451)

Absolutely, because...

Yeah, and I think that when I did fall flat on my booty, that's when I promised myself that I would help others so that they didn't have to go through. Well, I mean, gosh, it's traumatic. I mean, this isn't my natural hair color because I have so much gray. I had to cover over it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:46.014)

I love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:50.721)

Mm-hmm, it's really traumatic.

Katie Decker-Erickson (06:55.913)

That is so legit. I literally want toddled into my stylist yesterday. I'm like, can we talk about the mound of gray up here? Like what is going on? It all came in so fast and she goes, oh no, you're fine. It's just cause we haven't done some highlights in a while. And I'm like, oh, finally some good news about this whole aging thing. Like that's lovely. Get the highlights in their stat. Like we need help, right? But fix this, just fix all the things at this stage in life. So what would you say to someone?

Michelle (07:03.319)

Ha ha ha!

Michelle (07:13.107)

Yes. Exactly. Fix this.

Michelle (07:22.143)

If only it was that easy.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:24.129)

Right? I know. Oh my gosh. Well, you make it look that easy, Michelle. You're fabulous. What, what would you say to someone who's teetering on the edge of starting an interior design business there? They've, maybe they've been at a firm and they're thinking, you know, I really want to do my own thing. I'm tired of working for someone else. I want to strike out on my own. Or to your point about leaving corporate America, that's the background I came out of and just saying,

Michelle (07:30.959)

We can talk real.

Michelle (07:38.239)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (07:49.584)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:50.573)

I need to marry my left and right brains together. I see a desperate need in our industry for this, and I'm going to do it. What would you say?

Michelle (07:58.778)

I would definitely tell them if... It's harder than people tell you. It's kind of like marriage or raising children. Like everybody makes it look like rainbows and fairy dust, but it's very difficult. You have to have a mental discipline and a fortitude about you. But also that it is truly... It's...

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:06.089)

Yep.

Yes, yes

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:18.964)

Mm-hmm.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Michelle (08:27.43)

you have to treat your business or getting into business almost like a child learning how to walk. First you have to just learn how to roll over and lay on your tummy and then you crawl and then you walk and then you fall down but it's important that we and our internal voices don't say you're an idiot you fell down. That's not what we told our children. We tell them stand back up baby you're

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:31.452)

Hmm.

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:39.999)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:49.71)

No.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:54.245)

Yep.

Michelle (08:57.166)

going to be all glamorous and beautiful immediately. And even when it does have a glamorous and beautiful moment, it's fleeting. So yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:04.317)

I was gonna say or ever.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:09.569)

It's very fleeting. Well, I think, too, just getting rid of so many of the notions. There's so many people who, especially back when we did residential, would be like, Oh, can you come help me with pillows? Or I would that must be the best job ever. You pick out fabrics all day. And I was like, no.

Michelle (09:20.078)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (09:28.093)

Yeah

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:29.241)

No, I pick out fabrics in about five minutes because that's what you're paying me to do. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm communicating with you, managing client expectations, managing vendor expectations, keeping the project boards flowing, like all these other things that, you know, don't get me wrong, it's super duper fun, but it's a ton of work. No, they sure don't, and houses don't look miraculous in a half an hour, much to our utter chagrin. Let me know when you crack that nut, Michelle.

Michelle (09:34.23)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (09:40.352)

Yeah.

Michelle (09:48.214)

but they don't show that on HGTV.

I'm out.

Michelle (09:56.506)

Yes, with the budget of $18,000 for a new kitchen. It's like that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:00.321)

Can we just talk about getting them to s- Yeah, please just stop putting the budget numbers up there. They're not real budget numbers. That isn't real. Like, I don't know where those budgets happen, and they don't include labor. Like, I'm, yeah. We'll do another episode on that, for sure. We absolutely will. What surprised you about starting your own business that you didn't see?

Michelle (10:04.383)

That's a whole other episode. Yeah. Mm-mm. Yeah.

Michelle (10:17.055)

Yeah, it's ridiculous. Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:25.077)

coming, even having this huge, beautiful business corporate brain. What to you were your, as you put it in your analogy, your fall down moments and then the get backups again that you would say to someone who's thinking about doing this, like, no, not only expect the fall down moments, but here's some of the ones I personally experienced that were really growing for me.

Michelle (10:44.566)

I think a lot of it had to do with making money. I started off with my hourly rate, and there's just, there's no way to make ends meet. Not to the lifestyle that I was used to living. I would honestly say...

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:48.373)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:56.757)

Mm hmm. Sure.

Michelle (11:03.754)

now find a business coach. Find a business coach. I think that is what I wish I would have had back in the day, but people just, like I said, they weren't talking about it and there weren't any, there were very few and far between. And a lot of it was more focused on the design aspect than the business aspect. So.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:06.166)

Oh, yeah. Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:21.171)

Agreed.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:28.261)

And shameless plug, Michelle and I both coach. And this is what I love about this episode. It's not territorial. That's why we wanted to have Michelle on because it's once again.

Michelle (11:32.526)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:39.313)

I love that meme of like, if you see a woman's tiara and it's crooked, don't say anything, just go fix it. Like we don't have to have this isolationist mentality. There's plenty of work for everyone out there. Let's start getting behind each other and saying, how can I support you? And so yeah, this is what's great. We both coach. If you gravitate towards Michelle more in this episode, call Michelle and get on her books. If you want to come book with us, get on our books. We either we all have the same goal of helping you.

Michelle (11:45.739)

Yes.

Michelle (11:51.88)

Yeah.

Michelle (12:00.404)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (12:05.77)

Right. Well, and at the end of the day, it's like, I joke, but we were talking about this before we started recording. It's like, one, there's enough ugly houses for all of us. So there's really, it's community over competition. And then there are enough uninformed designers for anybody who wants to offer their experience and their help.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:11.135)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:16.545)

plenty.

Love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:22.987)

Mmm.

Michelle (12:27.654)

So I just, it's the same thing. It's just like dating, you know, not everybody that called you up and asked you out is, you know, you probably didn't go out with all of them. If you did, no judgment, but you find the one that clicks, right, and that's who you hire, that's who you marry. So yeah, I love that. It's so important that we all support each other.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:28.339)

I 100% agree.

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:40.101)

Yeah. I love that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.

Well, and to your point too about pricing, that's such a good one. In fact, we're gonna have you back for another whole episode just on pricing because I feel like that's a huge one that designers miss out on. What else did you personally have to learn firsthand that you now are like, oh, I learned that lesson the hard way, but now I can teach it.

Michelle (12:57.895)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Michelle (13:11.09)

Okay, so one, and this sounds so simple, you might just laugh, but feel free, because it doesn't embarrass me. I think just learning how to be myself, because I came in thinking that I needed to be like all designer-y, right? I was glamorously functional interiors for busy professionals. That was my tagline. But y'all, I love wearing jeans and some cute little booties and like, that's not glamorous. It's functional, right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:14.966)

No.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:20.069)

Mm-mm. That's not silly at all.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:26.657)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:32.394)

BOMB IT.

Michelle (13:41.086)

And I also, if you haven't noticed already, I have a little bit of a quirky voice, right? Like I'm not, I'm not prim and proper and I'm not quite the design-ery person that you would want to hire if you wanted somebody that way. Like, no, it's like, I'm gonna tell them that's ugly. Right? Once I figured out that I could be myself and I could be my own level of weirdness, that was so freeing. I don't know if that's a real word.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:55.233)

I don't want those people. Yeah, 100%.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:02.536)

Yep.

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:10.289)

Absolutely. No, that's a total word. Yeah. Yep.

Michelle (14:11.478)

But it was, yeah, oh my gosh, what a huge, simple, but profound eye-opening experience.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:21.277)

Well, and the side effect of that is that you're offering something nobody else can at that point.

Like I often think the poor women in school pick up line look at me like, good gosh, does she really run a design firm? It's our fourth day in that different set of yoga pants. I'm like, you better believe it sister, because when you have small people, I often joke I'm a human napkin and I never know what can be on my pants from small little people under four feet tall, right? And when you're going and you're carrying samples and then you're running to a school pickup and then you're meeting with a client, you know, when you can embrace and just say this is who I am.

Michelle (14:27.918)

There.

Michelle (14:37.661)

Ah, ah.

Michelle (14:46.716)

Yes! Ha ha ha!

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:57.109)

You can like it or leave it. Doesn't bother me either way. It is liberating, it is freeing, it is all those things. And I also think it creates a level of comfort with your clients. There's no tomfoolery about it, right? There's no like, well the marketing showed this, but I don't really feel like I'm getting that. Like this is confusing to me. There's no confusion.

Michelle (14:57.442)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (15:04.214)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:14.082)

Exactly. No, and we enjoy our clients because like attracts like. They are not pretentious. They are not fussy. I mean, sometimes a little fussy, but that's okay. That's what they're paying us for. But in that respect, it's so much more fun to work with those clients than the ones that thought I was somebody else. Yeah, it's been fabulous.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:23.109)

Agreed. So true. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:30.496)

Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:37.585)

I so agree with you 120%. If you're coming in with an idea of what you think your designer is going to be, it's usually not a client I wanna take on. If you're expecting me to show up in heels with your tile samples, I'm probably not your lady. Like, straight up, because I'd rather get in there and job walk and get dirty and see what's actually going on my job so that you have a product you love at the end of the day, right?

Michelle (15:47.214)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (15:52.171)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:57.275)

Mm-hmm

Michelle (16:01.142)

Well, and I just want to be comfortable. I don't want to wear high heels and a dress and all of the stuff that Glamrsly Functional Interiors was setting me up to be. Yeah. Yes. So. Ha ha ha. Ooh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:10.633)

I still agree with you. I hate anything with the waistband. Who thought that was a good idea? You know, like when you're moving around and doing all the things, I do not need a snap, I do not need a button, I need some Lycra, and I need some, I mean, right? Like, we just need some movement here, folks.

Michelle (16:26.026)

Yeah, some loose fitting clothes. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:28.237)

Yes, I'm here for all that. It's so funny. The other thing is, Leah, our fabulous producer, and I were having the conversation back in the day, but I was like, Leah, all I wanna wear is black. That is, I have a capsule wardrobe. It's called black because I sit in the world of color all day and I just don't want it complicated. We're just gonna keep this real simple because everything out there that I'm doing is complicated. Are you the same way?

Michelle (16:40.299)

Yes.

Michelle (16:46.895)

It's...

Michelle (16:50.862)

Well, mine, I've got a little bit more, but it's all neutral. It's black, ivory, brown, beige, and jeans. And once in a while, if I'm feeling crazy, there's some olive. But yeah. Yeah, and my house is about the same thing. And my husband was looking around saying, we need a little more color. I'm like, how about a different shade of brown?

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:54.213)

Okay, yep. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's what I was just gonna say. That's totally my like, I chose a color today. It's olive. Brace yourselves, people.

Michelle (17:19.722)

That's kind of a rust color. Hahaha. Yes! There you go, exactly. I think that's a great description. So yeah, it's just like and it just, it calms me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:21.967)

Let's go more terracotta than latte. What do you think? I'm going big today. That's so good.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:33.041)

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. Especially when you're running your own business. I mean, that brings up an interesting point. What sort of, oh, and the kids on top of it. That's a whole nother thing. Right? Managing up, managing down, managing all around. Like I literally feel like that's my theme song. It's just a lot of management, keeping the wheels on the bus, right? Like keeping the wheels on the bus.

Michelle (17:37.926)

and have the kids running around. My God, the energy between all of it, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (17:54.441)

Yes, because you are literally your theme song has a children's tune behind it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:01.79)

It totally does. OK, so let me ask you this. What personality traits do you think behooves someone who's getting ready to strike out in this profession or considering it?

Michelle (18:11.954)

Okay, so problem solving. Just general ass, common sense problem solving. I think there is, you can't teach that to people. So I think, yes, that's imperative. I think that, so you have to have that, you have to have tenacity. So also, so you know what? It's kind of like being a toddler. You have to have tenacity. You have to fight for what's right and you have to figure shit out.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:14.826)

Oh, yes. Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:22.254)

No, it's critical thinking.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:30.721)

tons of it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:39.201)

Absolutely agreed. And if that makes you uncomfortable, don't feel bad about staying at the firm that you're at and doing what you love. If you're like, I just wanna design 40 hours a week. I love living in Chief, I love living in Revit, I love living in CAD, whatever you're living in. I wanna hang out there.

Michelle (18:40.924)

So.

Michelle (18:45.984)

Yeah, that's good.

Michelle (18:49.815)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:56.681)

And that's all I want to do. This sounds really daunting and overwhelming. There's going to be different personalities and this like, even as you're listening to this episode, I would challenge our listeners. Like what is the feeling this creates in you? Does it create a, I don't want to do that. Or does it create a, Oh my gosh, that'd be great. I'm tenacious by nature. I'm always being told to calm down and like let, we'll take care of it and all these things and you're like, I just want to run my own show, whatever it is. It'd be easier. Like, I feel like just listening to this, people are going to

Michelle (18:58.381)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (19:10.722)

Oh sh- Mm-hmm.

Michelle (19:20.142)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:26.635)

gravitate toward one direction or the other and intuitively know.

Michelle (19:29.486)

I think you're absolutely right. And neither one of them are right or wrong.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:34.229)

Agreed. Wholeheartedly agreed.

Michelle (19:35.646)

So there should be no judgment if you have that entrepreneurial spirit or the wherewithal to go through the ups and the downs of the business. It doesn't mean you're any better than somebody who, like you said, just wants to go work for somebody and let them deal with the headache.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:42.177)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:47.89)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:54.965)

Well, and I think too, one thing we always talk about is scaling whatever you're doing to your lifestyle. So if you have little kids like, and you do too, like we're both sitting here with little kids when

Michelle (20:01.227)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:06.561)

My kids were really, really little before they went off to school full time. I intentionally toggled back my business and did not start doing interiors. We only did exteriors until a client who is still, I adore this client and we have him till still the two today, but he said, would you please, please do interiors? And I was like, you know what? My child, my youngest is about to go to school. Okay. We're going to do it, but scaling.

your lifestyle to your business, not your business.

Michelle (20:34.126)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:37.413)

or vice versa. I should say your business, your lifestyle, not your lifestyle to your business because so many people get on a train that is not sustainable and then they have no way to back out of it too. So if it feels sustainable to you, right? Like I'm happy in 40 hours a week. I love going to my firm creating I clock out and like you and I were joking before we came on, like we're not doing open heart surgery today, folks. This is great. It can probably wait until tomorrow. Like if that makes you happy,

Michelle (20:38.712)

Right.

Michelle (20:47.266)

I think that's a very valid point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:04.053)

then stay at your firm and continue to pour into those people.

Michelle (21:04.088)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (21:07.79)

And also, so adding to my answer, I think you have to have a sense of humor.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:13.509)

Oh, I love that. Yeah.

Michelle (21:15.786)

Right? Because you can't take yourself so seriously. This is, I mean, this is just interior design. Nobody is gonna die on the operating table. And so if we, yeah, we joke that we take our, we take our job seriously, but we don't take ourselves seriously. So, yeah, just have fun, I think is key.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:24.122)

It's so true!

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:31.486)

love that. Yeah.

Well, that's the thing. If you're not having fun at the end of the day, and maybe you're listening to this and you're going, neither one sounds fun to me. I love the book, What Color Is My Parachute? It's an old one, but it's a good one about figuring out what you're meant to do in life. Yeah, and if you're sitting here and you're like, I'm not happy working for a firm, I don't wanna strike out on my own.

Michelle (21:47.19)

Oh, I remember that.

Huh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:54.509)

Sister, that is okay. Maybe you are just not in the right profession. And I don't know if anyone's ever said that to you before and said, maybe you are called to a whole different enterprise. And it's being brave enough to step out and do that, like for you leaving corporate America, and saying, I am leaving corporate and I am going to start design. I mean, that takes courage too.

Michelle (21:59.665)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (22:10.203)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (22:18.366)

no idea. That was very ballsy. I had no, no clue. Yeah, I don't know. And that was the year we got married. My husband was like, what, you're starting your own business? Honey, you're in for a fun ride with me. Yeah. But also, I think that it's so you're talking to potential designers, or designers who are listening here, but also

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:20.849)

Yeah, extremely. Who does that? Yeah. But being able... No.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:31.973)

Surprise plot twist!

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:42.93)

Mm.

Michelle (22:45.526)

There's the individual who is being called towards design and stepping out of their other identity and claiming this one. So I think that if it is calling you, listen to that. Because if you're quiet, if you're quiet, and I instruct my friends, family, clients, students, whatever.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:46.46)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:50.314)

Great point.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:55.101)

Mmm...

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:02.185)

Absolutely listen to that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:09.501)

Anyone who will listen. Yep, I'm with you. That's my motto, yep.

Michelle (23:10.942)

Anybody who will listen exactly, my dog, my kids, is instead of listening to your heart, because our heart has so much emotion in it, or our mind, because there's so much logic, is breathe into your decisions through your gut, and literally trust your gut. If your gut is telling you yes, then go towards that and keep doing a gut check.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:17.684)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:24.725)

Yep, every time.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:33.373)

Yes, I think intuition is the most powerful tool we have. We're not very accepting of it in American culture because it's not tangible. And everything in American culture is based on the tangible, right? And well, thank God it kind of is because that's how we make our livings.

Michelle (23:45.341)

Mm hmm. But, but gravity is not tangible per se. It's like it's a universal law.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:49.861)

Oh, but it absolutely, or the wind, you don't see it, but boy, can it change things up. Sitting in the seat of your, well, there's that too. That's why we're not in physics, right? Full time. But sitting in the seat of your intuition and saying, what do I just feel? I think we have a propensity as well to try to explain away why we're feeling, what we are feeling. And I know you speak to this a lot too.

Michelle (23:55.202)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, granted, gravity can pop you in the head. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha.

Michelle (24:11.286)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:19.829)

Oh, I feel that, but like, oh, this could go wrong and that could go wrong and this could fail and that could fail, which kind of gets us to your whole topic of mindset. 90% of life I feel is mindset. Can you talk into that space?

Michelle (24:28.361)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (24:31.918)

Absolutely, and I think that it's interesting because oftentimes we do discount our intuition.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:38.535)

Agreed.

Michelle (24:39.958)

but a lot of it has to do with the mindset in my definition, because it's such a popular buzzword right now. Mindset is literally recognizing our thoughts or our intuition, okay, but mostly our thoughts. Let's talk about this. Our mind is an ancient piece of software. Okay, of course there's the brain.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:47.178)

Mmm. It is.

Michelle (25:04.578)

but there's the mind that's in it. And the mind is an ancient piece of software that was created to protect us. But back in, you know, pre-history, this was to keep us safe from, you know, maybe a warring tribe, or you're running away from a wooly mammoth or something and like your mind is looking for, what are you gonna step in? What are you gonna trip over? What's gonna get me from over here? Like there's all these other things. Absolutely. And it's looking out for what's wrong.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:11.159)

Mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:22.045)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:28.847)

This was very valuable then, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:34.723)

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (25:35.706)

And we have not, unless we intentionally upgrade our mind, we're still living in the what's wrong, what's wrong, what can go wrong, which is an important aspect of entrepreneurial life. You need to be able to look for it, but you can't live there. So when you have these, right. And so when you recognize it, like these thoughts,

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:42.694)

reprogram it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:53.729)

Sure. Ooh, I like that. You need to look for it, but not live there. That is a great line. Great line.

Michelle (26:05.174)

Like you can't do this, you can't do that, or you're going to go broke, or you're not qualified, or all these things. It's simply our mind trying to protect us from getting hurt. But it's our opportunity to reprogram it, to say, okay, I see you, that you're just a thought. And you're just a thought, you're not truth. I have thoughts, I am not my thoughts. And you know what? Katie, I have fingernails, I am not my fingernails.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:10.849)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:16.412)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:22.921)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hmm, I love, love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:34.877)

Yeah, that's such a great way to put it though. That's so basic and understandable. It's laughable, right? But we don't think about when it comes to our thoughts.

Michelle (26:36.319)

Right. So.

Michelle (26:41.406)

Yeah, nobody teaches us this. Nobody teaches us this. But we can take hold of our thoughts. In fact, this is in the Bible. Speaking of ancient times, it's like, you can take hold of your thoughts and you can reprogram them. So instead of I'm not worthy or I'm not qualified, it's like, that's just a bunch of BS. Let me change my thought.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:45.09)

No, no, this is not taught in school.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:51.933)

Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:02.641)

Who put that tape in your head? Yeah, let's turn this around a minute. Yeah.

Michelle (27:06.314)

Yeah, parents, society, all the things.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:09.673)

Well, I think especially as women, we get told that about a lot of things. You're too bossy. You're too loud. You're too verbal. You have too many ideas. You're a strong personality. What? And then that leads to the fear of, oh, maybe I shouldn't speak up, or maybe I am. Maybe I'm just too much for people. Or it all, right? And then we just pulled back into a shell. No, it doesn't. No.

Michelle (27:13.266)

Yeah.

Michelle (27:17.29)

You should just sit there and be pretty.

Mm-hmm, yeah. I gotta...

Michelle (27:30.466)

But playing small does not serve anybody. Yeah, and you know, I might have a strong personality, but I've also got a strong uppercut, so stand back. Oh, it just, I, yeah, it pisses me off to no degree. We were just talking about that today at the gym, how women are perceived so differently. Like, either we're bitchy or bossy, whereas men can be assertive.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:40.733)

I love that, I absolutely love that.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:47.285)

Hmm

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:51.569)

Very 100%.

Michelle (27:56.474)

And like my team, Juliana was just saying that she got spicy with the contractor. I'm like, do you think, I mean, and we were talking about it. Do you think a man would say I got spicy with the contractor? No, he just, he held his own and he, he just did it. Why do women have to have this? Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:07.529)

He just do it. He just did it.

Barbra Streisand has an epic poem about this, and we'll put it in the show notes. And I believe it's Barbra Streisand. If it's not, we'll correct it in the show notes. But it is fabulous about the different stigmas associated with being a man versus being a woman. And I also feel like it's interesting in our industry, the whole perception of, wait, you're a woman in construction. Therefore, you don't know what a J-box is. You would not possibly know what a 110 is. You wouldn't possibly understand the temp on a light bulb.

Michelle (28:21.006)

Hehehe

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:42.755)

why I want a 2,500K a Kelvin as opposed to a 3,500. There's no way you would possibly understand that. And I'm always amazed that I have to educate that I am educated on a job site.

Michelle (28:55.522)

Oh my gosh, that is so frustrating. Yeah. But along that lines, I think that once you step into this power, and what I've seen in my business processes, is that as I have brought my business acumen, and this is what I teach to my students is the business acumen, that so many and this is very

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:59.049)

It's exhausting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:05.746)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:11.217)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:18.61)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:23.206)

generalized but it's what I have experienced. So many of the husbands have said, I did not expect this level of professionalism. I did not expect this level of organizational skills. I did not expect this. So while I am going to pay you a little bit more than I anticipated, I know the job's going to get done.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:26.738)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:32.781)

Oh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:41.642)

Mmm.

I'm getting it back, which is a huge thing. Because then all of a sudden you've explained to your client the value of what you're providing.

Michelle (29:49.406)

Yes.

Michelle (29:53.69)

And the same thing with the GCs and the builders and stuff like that. It just puts you on a level playing field. And it's professional to professional. Yeah. Life is so much easier.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:00.413)

Absolutely it does. All of a sudden there's respect. Yeah, I totally agree. So much easier. If you had one piece of advice you were going to share with someone who's straddling this fence and trying to figure out whether opening their own firm is for them, what would you say?

Michelle (30:08.974)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (30:24.247)

I would say if you got to the end of your life and you could have met the person that you were supposed to become, what would you regret?

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:27.497)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:31.701)

Hmm.

Michelle (30:36.19)

or that you could have become. So if you have this in the back of your head and it is literally just churning away in your gut, saying do it, do it, do it, I say do it, bet on yourself, like who else are you gonna bet on?

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:38.869)

Hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:45.185)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:51.149)

And what's so great about betting on yourself is you have the ability to control the outcome. What better bet can you bet on? I mean really? That's huge. That is so huge.

Michelle (30:58.654)

Exactly. So that's what I would say. Don't be afraid. So Katie, that's half of the story of how I ended up with my daughter. We adopted her. I was 48 years old. I had just turned 48, cutting the umbilical cord of my daughter that we adopted. And it's truly because I was...

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:14.013)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:17.787)

awesome.

Michelle (31:21.482)

There was a handful of things that led up to it, but what really pushed me over the edge was that question. If I could have met the person I could have become, what would I regret? Would you regret not starting your own business? Not trying your own business? And think about the example that you set for your children. Like when they watch their mom, or dad.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:24.041)

Hmm. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:30.761)

Hmm. Wow.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:37.093)

Yeah, 120%.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:43.965)

So true. Yep.

Michelle (31:48.322)

but mostly their mom. When they watch her create something from scratch that empowers and brings joy to her, even though it's stressful.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:53.106)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (31:57.793)

Sure. What a gift to give them. It's huge. It's so huge. Well, and that just segues nicely into my last question. We talk about this all the time on the podcast. But as a mom, and like you said, it's predominantly women in our industry, so no offense to the fathers at all. Please come along for the ride on this.

Michelle (31:59.45)

What example are you setting for your children? Yeah. So yeah, that's what I would say.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:20.237)

What would you say to someone who's going, oh, how do I do this, Michelle? Can you start your own firm and be a parent? Can you do that? I love that answer.

Michelle (32:28.002)

Hell yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think not just yeah, but hell yeah. It goes back to you have to crawl before you walk and you're not gonna run a freaking marathon your first year. So I would say start looking for coaches. Look up Katie, look at me, look up, you know, now you can throw a stone and hit a business, you know, an interior design business coach on every corner.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:34.695)

Love it.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:40.277)

Sure.

Nope, nope, we're gonna start with one client.

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:53.377)

Totally, there is, there absolutely is.

Michelle (32:55.702)

but find one that fits for you. Do your research, talk to their previous students, see if that person is for you, and don't go for the cheapest. Don't go for the cheapest. And you can't turn, yeah, you can't start a business in a five day workshop or four day workshop or whatever. It's like, you can get started off. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (32:59.336)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:04.977)

Yeah.

No, you get what you pay for. It's true in design. It's true in coaching. It's true in so many things.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:19.873)

Cute idea, completely unattainable. Yeah, completely unattainable. Michelle, such a good conversation. Thank you so much for your time and for coming on the show, It Means the World.

Michelle (33:29.331)

Likewise.

Oh babe, so much fun. Thank you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (33:34.602)

Thank you.