Do you let the natural environment inform your designs? How does color affect your designs? And how can you adequately share what you do when you explain color to your clients? It’s a lot to think about.

Lucky for us, my dear friend, Jason Bemis joins us on this episode to talk about nature, psychology, physiology, and color. We’re getting scientific! This is an interview not to miss if you’ve felt like inspiration has been lacking or you’re just looking for something to enliven your designs.

In this episode, we cover:

• How color and design textures affect how we feel in different environments

• How color impacts our endocrine system

• The importance of talking with the people who are spending lots of time in the space everyday

• How designers can best explain color psychology to clients (in a way they understand)

• How we can best maximize the color with the functionality of the space

• How to pull from nature to inform your color choices

• Why it’s important to follow the methodology of nature and bring that into these unnatural environments

• What work life balance looks like for a designer who’s in nature much of the day

• What we can learn about color from kids

For even more on sourcing inspiration from Mother Nature, check out Jason’s color seminar linked below. And be sure to connect with both of us on Instagram!

More About Jason C. Bemis

Jason C. Bemis is a native Vermonter with a diverse range of creative interests. As an artist and a musician he draws inspiration from the natural world and has spent countless hours exploring diverse ecosystems. As a biologist and designer, he collects visual information about the flora, fauna, fungi and their intricate relationships with the environment. He then uses this knowledge to create environmental color systems and regional color palettes that support his AICCE and IACC/NA lectures on the physiological and psychological effects of color and light on human response. He believes it's essential to understand our relationship with the environment to create healthier man-made spaces that support the human condition.

Links and Mentioned Resources

Be Nice to Spiders

The Prophet

AICCE Academy

Connect with Jason Bemis

Instagram

Connect with Katie Decker-Erickson

Book Your Coaching Strategy Session with Katie!

Business Coaching for Interior Designers

Facebook

Instagram

Subscribe to Colorful Conversations with Katie Podcast

YouTube

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

More about Colorful Conversations with Katie

Welcome to “Colorful Conversations with Katie”! Join us for a vibrant webcast where we seamlessly blend the realms of design and business in a fun and professional setting. Available on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms!

Hosted by the dynamic Katie, a seasoned expert with nearly 20 years of experience in both fields, this engaging series promises to ignite your creative spark and sharpen your entrepreneurial acumen. From exploring the latest design trends to uncovering strategies for building successful ventures, we dive deep into the colorful world where aesthetics meet profitability.

Whether you’re a budding designer or a savvy entrepreneur, this webcast is your go-to source for inspiration, insights, and a dash of lively conversation. Tune in and let your imagination, business and life take flight!

This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you. 

This episode of Colorful Conversations with Katie is brought to you in partnership with Leah Bryant Co.

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Colorful Conversations with Katie podcast follows

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:01.92)

Hey Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason Bemis (00:03.51)

Hey Katie, how you doing? It's nice to see you.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:06.3)

It's so good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. Yes, I have a huge smile on my face because I There's there's guests that are friends and there's guests that are guests and this is a guest that is both and I'm so grateful Jason is a kindred spirit whose love of color is just Astounding to me. When did you first I guess it's a good starting place. When did you first fall in love with color and realize that color? Is pretty critical to everything we do in life not just as designers, but just as human beings

Jason Bemis (00:26.114)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Bemis (00:34.818)

Well, I started when I was really young. My mother told me that when I was two, I was opening ketalpa pods and arranging the seeds by their color and shape. And I believe that organization, even at that point, carries over to all parts of our world today as a coordinating tool.

Katie Decker-Erickson (00:52.212)

Absolutely. So when did you officially get roped in to color in a formal sense? And we know you still play in nature a lot, which we're gonna get back to. Jason does some incredible, incredible photography. But yeah, when did that become like, when did you go, oh, light bulb moment, this isn't just something I enjoy, this is something I can make into a profession?

Jason Bemis (00:59.583)

Okay.

Jason Bemis (01:14.082)

So when I was a teenager, I used to work for a company called Stihl Industries. And they sent me to their color design studio in Germany. So I got to do projects all over the world, and I realized the psychological value, the aesthetic value, and the societal value at that point. I got to see Europe has used this color a little more deliberately than we do, so.

Katie Decker-Erickson (01:38.308)

You can say that unabashedly. Yeah, like many things in America, sometimes I think it feels like a little bit of an afterthought, which is why I think designers are obviously, I love our peer group, in that there's an intentional component to it. And it is more deliberate. And the results of that are obviously a lot more manifest, I should say, in the results. Talking about color, color and architecture, what do you think designers?

Jason Bemis (01:40.019)

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:06.524)

are missing when it comes to color and architecture.

Jason Bemis (02:10.7)

Well.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:10.848)

I mean, we kind of take it for granted, I feel like. Like we have texture, we have color, we have all these modalities, and they're all out there and we use them all. But I don't think we ever take the time, or we don't usually take the time to tease out specifics such as, how can I use color in this application that would make it so superior? How can I use texture in this application to make it so superior? So how would you, yeah, how would we answer that question about what are we missing as designers when it comes to color? Do we just take it for granted, or how would you fill in that blank?

Jason Bemis (02:38.918)

I feel like we're aware of it, but we don't realize it. We see it every day in marketing when we go into a store and you say, oh, I like this place. Usually the balance and the color design is good. But the education just isn't there. The understanding that our external environment that we evolved in is kind of similar to our internal environment. Pause one second.

Katie Decker-Erickson (02:48.12)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:06.912)

Yep, take your time.

Jason Bemis (03:08.418)

This is not a pause. I'm gonna turn my earphones so I can, I hear my voice in my throat, so. I'm just lifting my earphones up a little. So I will continue. So I believe that in the built world that the education just isn't there about color. Many people think color is just ancillary, that it's fluffy or foofy and it doesn't actually have a psychological or physiological effect.

Katie Decker-Erickson (03:15.696)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Bemis (03:34.274)

But when you use the environment as a medium to understand how the interrelationship of the colors, you really can start to see how you can modify architectures to be more supportive of the human condition from our focus, from our energy, even the air we breathe, lighting cycles. So we really need to take a better look, I believe, and increase the health and the wellness of everyone while they're working their lives away, right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:02.324)

Oh my gosh, it's so true. I think that's such an interesting, we talk about color temperature so much and how our lighting temperature, I should say, and how it affects color. And that's such a huge, huge component that I don't think many people outside of our world of design and other designers understand is sitting under fluorescent lights is not where you are meant to grow as a human being.

Jason Bemis (04:23.038)

No, no one realizes that all through the day at different times, the light is different and our body has certain biological aspects to it that harvest energy or utilize this time of day. Our circadian rhythm in our body is totally set on by the sun, so yeah, if you get in an artificial environment with strobing lights, it's not good for your endocrine system, which is how we react to color and light on a base level.

Katie Decker-Erickson (04:50.152)

It's so true. I mean, the cortisol levels of people who sit under fluorescent lights a day that have been measured, it's pretty breathtaking, quite frankly.

Jason Bemis (04:58.57)

It is. It's amazing. And where do they do it? Like educational systems or, you know, hospitals. Just where you don't need them. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:04.8)

And then I wonder why my kids are fried when I pick them up at 2.40 every day. And they're hungry and miserable, and we cry the whole way home. Anybody else out there relate to that? It's probably because they've been under fluorescent lights all day. So how as designers do we begin? And shameless plug for you, Jason has a phenomenal color course that's related to the International Association of Color.

Jason Bemis (05:12.078)

Thanks.

Katie Decker-Erickson (05:29.476)

that we actually have a link to. We'll put that in our show notes if you want to go take those courses that really explain how we can intentionally use color in design. If I've done the course, it's great. If you are interested, I would strongly encourage you to do it.

At a rudimentary level, and for the sake of our audience, what are the tips you would provide for using color intentionally when we walk into any design space, whether it's residential and just simply a nursery, which isn't simple in many ways, an entire home or a commercial setting? What do you think? I mean, what would you say to a designer? These are the three things that are really critical to understand or to think about.

Jason Bemis (05:47.639)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Bemis (05:59.849)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Bemis (06:08.942)

Okay, understanding the space is critical, and I think one of the initial ways to understand the space is to talk with the people who are in the space every day.

You know, when you talk with employees in a store or in a building, they're the ones that, you know, the day-to-day routine, they can tell you if like the lighting's bad here, I get tired, the air's not good. I think the second thing is we have to consider environmental psychology, which I can talk a little more after. But the organization of colors within the environment creates a powerful effect. On a very rudimentary level,

Floor is solid, walls are protecting, ceiling usually moves away. But within that, there's certain visual cues that are present in our natural environment that we can relate. And the function is very key. What is this place used for? Because then you can start to discern what colors could I use to be supportive. Because you know, people always ask, you're a color designer, so you paint rooms blue to make people sleepy. And I'm like, that's not even touching the surface of it

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:16.28)

It goes so in depth, that's so true. I always love it when people want to paint a nursery yellow. I'm like, that is the worst possible idea in the world. You know how much energy there is in yellow. Do you want your child to ever sleep again? But a lot of people, yeah. What a lot of people just don't realize.

Jason Bemis (07:18.257)

Um.

Jason Bemis (07:26.806)

Yeah

Jason Bemis (07:32.414)

I just recently did a, go ahead please, I just recently, they don't, I just did a job in town recently and the owner of a business, the coffee shop called me and she's like, I painted this a yellow orange and it is way too much, you know? And I went down there and my eyes popped and I was like, so I just accommodated it with using its compliment and pattern and form within the space in it, you know? We can buffer the feel of an environment using color discernibly.

Katie Decker-Erickson (07:57.633)

Nice.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:02.792)

I love that. So number one, make sure I know your audience and the usage. What, who's in this space? What do they want out of this space? How do they interact with this space? I think.

Jason Bemis (08:10.994)

Well, usually, yes, it's so important, especially like in a factory or a place that has a lot of organization, like a hospital. There's so many different levels of organization and so many specific environments that require certain needs. Now, maybe if you're in a factory and it's really hot there and you don't have much to do with color.

maybe you'd accommodate with a cooler color to offset using, you know, compliments. Whereas maybe it's in a store, the organization of trying to arrange things visually so they're easily well received, I guess you could say. I think I spaced… Go ahead. I started to space off from the question, I think, so you can pull me back in.

Katie Decker-Erickson (08:53.716)

And even... say that again?

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:00.404)

Well, no, I was just thinking about applying that in a residential application. The energy levels, thinking back to remember those really special red kitchens we had back in the day. Oh my gosh, I'm okay letting those be dormant for a hot minute. But thinking about, you know, even what you put into your bedroom is gonna be so different than what you put into your kitchen or your dining or understanding color for each of those rooms because especially in a residential application, we have such unique uses for each space and they're not necessarily always big spaces either.

Jason Bemis (09:04.128)

Hmm?

Jason Bemis (09:09.683)

Oh I know, right?

Jason Bemis (09:19.926)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (09:30.378)

So how do we maximize the color to the functionality and the people there? How do designers explain this to clients? Because I think sometimes when we talk to clients, we have a real not sometimes we do have a real opportunity to add value to what we do, but sometimes it feels she foo or kind of floaty. For lack of a better word. How do we bring this down to substantive understanding and explanation to them?

Jason Bemis (09:57.014)

Well, that is what I'm very concerned with the IACC is the scientific reasoning behind it. I don't believe that any one specific opinion about something, you know, you can hold in gold. I think you need to when you're dealing with things that can affect people's health, you really need to consider the information and make sure it's scientifically valid because one thing that's very important but can be very dangerous at the same time is trends.

people will post an image of something in architecture that breaks many color rules. And psychologically, you wouldn't want to be there for a long time, and everyone says, hey, they did it, this is great. When it's really for show. And we always need to consider, are we in the space for a long time, so it can affect us, or are we just moving through quickly?

Katie Decker-Erickson (10:47.896)

That's so real. I was thinking back on how we had talked about shiny floors, really glossy floors or glass floors. I was at the Space Needle a couple of weeks ago and they have made, there's two floors and the bottom floor of the top of the Space Needle, they made glass, because it used to be a restaurant, it used to, and it still spends. And my kids kept asking me to go step out on it and I was like, uh-uh, uh-uh. Nope, nope, I realize, I can tell you as a logical, rational human being that glass will hold me and it is perfectly safe

Jason Bemis (11:04.99)

Okay.

Jason Bemis (11:09.634)

Mm-mm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:17.85)

If you think I'm gonna step on that and look straight down, you are nuts.

Jason Bemis (11:21.526)

Yeah, it's a scary feeling.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:23.684)

It is the scariest feeling and that's where it, like this whole concept becomes very tangible to me because logically I know that glass is great, it's totally fine. I did not step on it. Apparently I'm not alone because they've even taken pieces of flooring now and covered up segments of the glass for people like me. It was interesting. I noticed after about the age of 15 or 20, everyone stood on the pieces that had the cover. It's all the kids laying on the glass thinking, oh, this is the most amazing thing.

Jason Bemis (11:44.93)

people weren't stepping on it.

That's very interesting.

Katie Decker-Erickson (11:53.738)

I'm like the beauty of youth. You don't know what you don't know, but they were not inhibited at all But the psychological component was so real and the environment was so real You couldn't out think your way around it for the most part

Jason Bemis (12:05.67)

No, that's a great way that actually color works too, because when we change color, it's hard, like people are afraid of color, I feel, to make a big change, you know? People are comfortable choosing their clothes, some people, but when we come into an internal environment, it's difficult to choose a color, as you know, because things don't appear as you think they will. And...

Katie Decker-Erickson (12:32.416)

Well, what's interesting to me about that is I remember you saying, and really in America, we don't use colorists, but you look at the rest of the world. You look at Europe, you look at Canada. For instance, there's actual standalone Benjamin Moore stores in Canada. They don't go through a distributor or independence like they do in the States, but you would never consider painting your house without talking to a colorist in those areas first, those geographical regions. And somehow in the United States, I always think it's interesting. We go into a big box retailer.

Jason Bemis (12:32.439)

Sorry.

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:02.33)

under fluorescent lights and everyone I feel like as a homeowner is destined for failure and that's obviously why you call us in for help because we know why this is going wrong. But you're looking under those fluorescent lights again at all the colors with the wrong color temperature lights and then you're saying I'm gonna paint my color this and you get home and you go, oh my gosh, this looks nothing like it. Well, there's a good reason why.

Jason Bemis (13:21.086)

Exactly. There's so many levels of dissociation from, everyone's eyes are different. Like you said, the lighting inside changes it compared to where the other lighting might be, the time of year. There's all these variables which are definitely, they take a little work to condense together. One thing I believe in is we make little...

Polarity profiles of ways of harboring information from the environment, whether it be color or structural, a kind of back line or no. It leads into your question earlier, like what do you ask or when you go into the environment, what kind of information do you look for?

Katie Decker-Erickson (13:47.916)

Mmm.

Jason Bemis (14:03.006)

And it's very, it's almost like taking a questionnaire at a restaurant. Does this place make you feel safe? Or does it feel cold or warm? And you can use adjectives in order to kind of hone in on what the architecture feels like. Because how many times do people walk in and say, hmm, how does this make me feel? Maybe if it's a church or something else, but really, you don't see it anywhere else.

Katie Decker-Erickson (14:25.952)

Well, and it was interesting. There was a space the other day that I walked into. It was actually a Starbucks in Seattle. And I think because of the challenges they've had with the homeless population, they've become pretty stripped down. There's napkins are not out. There's no half and half cream pot. It's just very austere furniture. It's very modern, which is great, but if they had throw pillows in there, they'd probably walk away and whatnot. And so it's just so austere. And I walked in and it was so hard surface

Oh, this feels just horrible. I'm like, even if they put one plant in here for greenery, there were wood elements, concrete elements, but it was all just hard. And the feeling was an immediate reaction walking through the door that I'm like, this doesn't feel like a Starbucks. This isn't soft and warm and embracing. And like, I want to cozy in with a cup of coffee. And all of those feelings, whether they're subliminal or whether they register, they're there and they affect our buying power,

Jason Bemis (15:16.557)

Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson (15:25.946)

we have in our homes, the way we move through various spaces throughout the day. It's unbelievable to me and I think that's why sometimes we get to the end of the day and we're like why are we tired as human beings? There's probably more than there's a lot of reasons and a lot of it has to do with our environment. Which kind of gets me to what you love to do which is get out in nature because I love how much you rely on nature to inform your color choices. Can you dive into that a little bit?

Jason Bemis (15:31.03)

You're absolutely right.

Jason Bemis (15:40.916)

Absolutely.

Jason Bemis (15:52.638)

Absolutely, it's one of my favorite things. So in a nutshell, the environment that we evolved in is full of color, pattern, texture, and form that are in a kind of hierarchical, they're in an order. And so we can look out at a tree with thousands of leaves and it's not confusing to us. We can see the pattern, it's in order. So when we come into an interior environment, where

All that color and variation and texture and form, which we thrive on, we feel good when we go into the woods, right? People say, oh, I took a walk. I feel so great. It's because, yeah, we require a certain amount of stimulation in order to feel okay. So when we go inside and we make no texture, pattern, color, it doesn't relate to the environment at all, doesn't relate to the sun. Of course, our body's like, where are we going to be? So I've also...

Katie Decker-Erickson (16:27.736)

Mm. Nature bathing, yeah.

Jason Bemis (16:49.034)

Within the natural environment, the plants and the insects and the fungus and the trees co-evolved together and actually formed the colors we have now. We kind of evolved into that. So I think it's very powerful.

to look to the environment, look at the systems, look at the way color is organized because it's never arbitrary. It's either functional or structural. A hummingbird isn't just arbitrary colors, it's all in some kind of a portion. And I like to try to create tools to harvest color.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:22.385)

Hmm.

Jason Bemis (17:27.382)

connections and harmonies from the environment and a big part of that is proportion and space and intensity, all those little rules of color that seem not very important until you actually start working with color in a space.

Katie Decker-Erickson (17:42.716)

I feel like especially when you make a mistake, I wanna say mistake, because sometimes it's intentional too, but we often, one thing that I love that you discussed is the order of color in relationship to the environment. For instance, like we would typically never paint a ceiling black. Well, why is that? Why does that feel oppressive and horrible? Because black in nature is found in dirt and that goes on the bottom, not the top. So that starts to push us down emotionally, psychologically when we're in that space.

Jason Bemis (18:05.154)

Right.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:12.57)

and can feel like it's about six and it's crowding in on us in a really intense way as compared to laying it as a baselitter doing the darker floor. And I mean, even just traversing through nature with dirt being black, moving into the greens and white. We find white in the clouds. Like when we follow that methodology and we bring that into the unnatural environment, it automatically feels so much better to us as human creatures. Yeah. I mean, even thinking through them.

Jason Bemis (18:36.302)

So much better, it really does. I really enjoyed the classes with you when you make the models, you can make small cutout models to kind of visualize in real life because it's all about looking at something that you can't see yet and imagining what it is. I really like ontological design. A number of people have talked about it before, but you know.

Katie Decker-Erickson (18:56.543)

Mmm.

Jason Bemis (19:02.062)

creating the environment and affecting the environment so it in turn affects how you feel. So we kind of reprogram ourselves epigenetically by trying to create better environments and we should adapt to it. I feel like this consciousness is slowly opening up around the world.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:20.904)

I totally agree. You even think about like a spa, a spa palette wasn't just arbitrarily named a spa palette. There's a very good reason why those colors, those greens and blues and creams and chocolateies are soothing and soft. And so whether we know it or not, this is happening and we can intentionally embrace it and then marketing it to clients so that they understand I didn't just choose this because it's a pretty color or it goes with the pillow I used as my inspiration point. There's actually the psychological component that you shared with me.

Jason Bemis (19:26.846)

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Bemis (19:37.078)

Yep.

Katie Decker-Erickson (19:50.938)

want to feel in this space. If it's your office, I want you to feel like you can think or create or do or if it's your nursery, I want your kid to go to sleep or if it's your kitchen, I want people to feel alive and entertained and taken care of and I think just giving words to that helps our clients understand so much that it's not just a pretty color. Yeah.

Jason Bemis (20:11.442)

Absolutely, because the trail to understand it is, you know, it's kind of lengthy sometimes. So yes, getting down to that simplistic. So the people that live there can understand because if they're okay with it, then you know, you did a good job if they feel good about it. But people don't really know what they want. And it's difficult to understand color if you're not great at it. And you know, there's a high higher amount of men that have color blindness and women are evolving to see color better. So

I suspect we'll have more women color designers. Yeah, there are tetrachromopoeia. It's a fourth cone. So yeah, you're all visions getting better and better. And which makes sense biologically. Which makes sense biologically because in the hunter gatherer, you know, the women usually dealt with those nuances of the colors of foods and berries.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:42.392)

Huh.

Interesting. I did not know that. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (20:56.64)

Tell that to my optometrist.

Jason Bemis (21:10.178)

their properties and those that ability to see color was so important to our evolution understanding what foods are safe and dangerous so it makes sense to me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:11.029)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (21:22.48)

Makes complete sense to me. And if you guys want to learn more about this, sign up for the seminar and take it. There's so many color seminars out there. This is the one that's actually part of the International Accrediting Association for Color. That's not its formal name, but this, there's a bunch of spinoffs and versions that have been created by numerous people and no disservice to them. But this is the juggernaut in the true reputable organization that is operating on a global platform speaking in to the world of color,

incredibly valuable, which hopefully you do too, after hearing what Jason has had to say. We always talk about too on this podcast, scaling our businesses to our lives and keeping not just the professional going, but the personal going. How have you managed, it almost seems like you have a perfect work-life balance, because when you go out in nature and you fulfill that personal component, it's also really informing your work in a lot of ways. How do you keep that balance?

Jason Bemis (22:04.887)

Mm-hmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:20.672)

symbiotic and appropriate and what would you say to designers today who are just struggling with that balance?

Jason Bemis (22:28.202)

Yeah, well, you know, designing is a lot of inspiration and I'm an artist also. And when people say you're an artist, paint this, it's, you can't always come to that inspiration right away. So I believe looking around for inspiration from your environment, go to some architecture, look at it because.

Katie Decker-Erickson (22:44.824)

Hmm.

Jason Bemis (22:47.934)

My dad always said everything's been designed before. If you look to environment, everything has definitely been designed. So it's looking at other things that work. There's nothing wrong with that and a little research. But for me, yes, I collect information and data from the woods. I see the patterns. I see a flower or something that reminds me of something or the structure might relate to a piece of architecture because...

the structure and color are so succinct, and it is a nice balance because if I get on the computer and I don't get out in the woods, I'm a little perturbed and I can't always understand why I'm like, I should have gone on a walk. Because I think it works the same as is in an interior, if the environment is keeping your attention comfortable, your mind doesn't go racing off, kind of at a homeostasis.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:35.361)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (23:39.736)

That's a really interesting point. And one thing I love about color is how accessible it is. So I think too, you're a single dad, you've got kids, I've got kids, my kids love color. Whenever we get into color, it doesn't matter if it's an afternoon of, even if I can't drag them and they're not going into the woods with me and they're not having a hike, which happens pretty frequently. I can usually lure them into some sidewalk chalk. It's amazing how inspirational that can even be to sit there with the colors and patterns and shapes just playing in the driveway with.

I think sometimes we feel we have to go, and don't get me wrong, I love going to a beautiful museum and seeing a Monet, a Picasso, a Rembrandt, and feeling all of that. Sometimes it's just not always tangible to fill up the creative cup. And sometimes it is just as simple as here's a Crayola, you know, sidewalk chalk piece. Get busy with that. Yeah, how do you pull your... Oh, go ahead.

Jason Bemis (24:16.809)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Bemis (24:21.313)

now.

Jason Bemis (24:29.45)

Yeah, absolutely. Interacting with the environment is so important. When we interact with the environment, we come in harmony with it and we feel good, as opposed to being in an office that we hate the lighting, we hate the air, we hate the people sitting next to us. I don't mean to sound negative, but maybe that's true. So, yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson (24:50.964)

really relatable, you know? It's not your favorite spot necessarily. How do you create when you're not in that creative space? You have to fill up that cup. How do you pull your daughter into understanding color and seeing the world around her and creating more of that symbiotic relationship between work-life balance?

Jason Bemis (25:07.446)

Well, she took color to a completely another level from me, and she is so saturated color, but it works. Like she took the pink and the fuchsias, but you know, so a lot of what we study about our color charts were designed by Munzeld in order to make a system that would work for everyone. But as I looked into it, his institute.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:14.721)

That's awesome.

Jason Bemis (25:30.93)

He made books for children and he said, we're terrible at color because we don't teach our children. So since I shared all this information with my daughter, we have conversations, frank conversations about psychology, about the physics of light, about the environment and the interconnections. So just the fact that I gave her that knowledge, she's taken it way beyond me.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:37.106)

Mmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:50.409)

Nice.

Katie Decker-Erickson (25:56.876)

That's amazing. I love that. Okay, rapid fire round. I hope you're ready for it. Let's do it. What is a book that has most changed your life?

Jason Bemis (26:00.874)

Yes. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Jason Bemis (26:07.33)

The book that has most changed my life, I would have to say, is The Prophet by Khalil Jabran because it's full of very connected life truths that I enjoy.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:18.824)

I love that. We'll put a hyperlink to that in the show notes. How is that informed? Yeah, okay.

Jason Bemis (26:22.914)

But I have to add one more. I have to add one more. Starting at a young age, and I think it's good, so when I was little I had this book called Be Nice to Spiders. And it was about a zoo and there were a bunch of flies and there were some spiders and the zookeeper said, hey, get rid of all the spiders to the kid. And he did and all the flies came back. And so they brought the spiders back. So it taught me a good environmental ecological lesson from being young.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:32.67)

Oh.

Katie Decker-Erickson (26:50.94)

In that, you need all the pieces of the puzzle, so to speak.

Jason Bemis (26:54.554)

Absolutely, you've got to be aware of everything and realize things are there because things evolved in a certain way because that's how they're supposed to be. Or that's how they are. Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:03.816)

And if nothing else, just be nice. I feel like so many people are struggling with that after COVID. Just be nice, be nice. Everyone's doing the best they can. Just be nice.

Jason Bemis (27:10.31)

Oh, it is. And a good side note for that, like when you're talking with someone about a project, you never go in there and say, oh, this place is terrible, because chances are they had something to do with it. You say, you'd be nice about it, right? Sorry, I just had to say, you say, maybe you could do this. Go on.

Katie Decker-Erickson (27:23.956)

So true. Totally.

Yeah, or this is a great starting place. Let's take it to the next level. Yeah, that's a great one. Looking back, and it was yesterday, I'm sure. It was for me anyway. What would you tell your 20-year-old self? What piece of advice?

Jason Bemis (27:31.926)

Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Bemis (27:40.394)

Yes.

Jason Bemis (27:45.342)

I would say follow your intuition and your heart and your inspiration. Which seems depleting at times, but I think of all the times in the past when I could have really, whether it be an idea you wanted to go for but you just weren't sure or a change in your life, it's easy to get all pragmatic and logical and this is what I need to do. But sometimes I would tell myself like, don't be scared, just do it. Go ahead, just do this.

I think it's important. Yeah, give yourself permission. Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:14.925)

Hmm give yourself the permission or permission to run after it Yeah, yeah, it's really good We I love that word pragmatic because I think sometimes we can talk ourselves into and out of a lot of things Instead of just telling our mind to shut up for a hot minute Which I have to do and just saying this just doesn't feel right and I can't explain that like we had this with a client It just didn't feel right

Jason Bemis (28:25.79)

Absolutely.

Katie Decker-Erickson (28:38.336)

Didn't do it. So glad we didn't do it. Because as I like to say, time is the teller of all tales. And time told the tale. And it was so good we did not get on that train. I'm just saying. I mean, sometimes you don't get that resolution. But sitting here in my mid-40s, it is nice sometimes to be able to say, oh, now I know the why. Sometimes it just takes a lot longer. But it's usually out there somewhere. It usually is. Best.

Jason Bemis (28:43.848)

It is.

Jason Bemis (28:48.09)

Right? It's great when you know it's not the right thing, isn't it?

now.

Jason Bemis (29:04.474)

It is. I like your thinking, Katie.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:08.296)

Ah, right back at you, Jason. Okay, best time management hack. How do you keep all the wheels on the bus? What have you found works?

Jason Bemis (29:16.066)

For me, best time management is again, it's probably gonna sound a little arcane to other people, but I lose track of time unless I go into the woods and lose track of time to organize all my time when I'm not in the woods. Because I have so many things going on, I can't sometimes slow down. Making a list is pointless because I'll get lost in a mystery making a list. So getting away, quieting down, looking at the color from the environment.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:30.444)

That's a great one.

Jason Bemis (29:43.662)

thinking about what I do and then it, and for me that's been the best thing for me personally.

Katie Decker-Erickson (29:50.9)

I think that's so wise.

Kind of goes back to what we're saying about pouring out of an empty cup But I always like to use the analogy of a wind-up car to wind-up cars can't go forward fast until they pull back And I think as human beings we have to pull back and what that looks like if it's time in the woods and recalibrating If it's the glass of wine the bubble bath the meeting a friend for dinner Whatever it is reading a book so you get that introverted time Just something and it I think going back to giving ourselves a permission It doesn't even have to be design related because as creative creature

Jason Bemis (29:58.795)

Yeah.

Jason Bemis (30:02.239)

Right?

Jason Bemis (30:16.31)

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson (30:23.374)

all of our inputs back to ontological design shape our outputs. And so taking the time to wind that car so to speak so you can move forward in a more fluid intentional way is huge. Alright back at you. Thank you Jason so much for joining us we so appreciate it. What a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Jason Bemis (30:28.118)

Yes.

Jason Bemis (30:37.331)

Absolutely. Well said.

Jason Bemis (30:42.446)

Thank you. It's been so nice. Thank you.